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Jun 01 2012

Pro-Homosexual Reverend Loses Congregation

There is a price to be paid by reverends who turn their backs on both scripture and their own congregations:

The reverend of a St. Paul church says he needs to raise $200,000 to pay off a church loan after most of his followers left because of his support for gay marriage.

The Rev. Oliver White runs Grace Community United Church of Christ in St. Paul. The 69-year-old said he needs to raise the money by June 30.

“We lost our income when we lost a number of people from our congregation.” White said.

White said two-thirds of his followers left after he said he supported same-sex marriage, and said he was against the marriage amendment that will be up for a vote in November.

He went on to bleat that people who take scripture and morality seriously are “scared of change,” that putting an official imprimatur on homosexual depravity while reducing marriage to a blasphemous farce is a civil rights issue, et cetera, ad nauseam, even quoting Rodney King at one point.

The few who haven’t bailed out of his unholy church are “praying for a miracle donation.” Who they are praying to is anyone’s guess.

The lesson: the corrupt cultural elite can’t lead us off a cliff if we stay true to our values and refuse to follow.

homosexuality-christianity
Holy and unholy don’t go together.

On a tip from Whotothewhat.

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  • MG

    Sad, but they’ll probably get it. There are enough moonbats out there with money that someone will bail them out. Of course, with no congregation, they won’t stay afloat long.

  • StanInTexas

    WOW! It will be hard to find a clearer example of freedom of religion in this country than this.

    So the leader of a Chirstian Church turns his back on Scripture, and his congregations leaves.

    GOOD.

  • modd kenwood

    there.is.no.homosexual.agenda.
    repeat…

  • TED

    As ANY Reverend that turns his back on his teachings should! FAILURE – the result of turning liberal.

  • Judith M.

    Meanwhile Eric Holder, the IRS, and the ACLU are coaching black ministers what they can say from their pulpits:

    http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/holder-brief-black-pastors-campaign-2012/567501

    Religious liberties in this country are truly on the ropes.

  • StanInTexas

    Judith, did Holder schedule a meeting for WHITE pastors to get the same information, or would that be R-A-C-I-S-T?????

  • Jay B.

    Incredible, he turns his back from his own chosen path and chastise people for not following him.

  • Lauran

    No doubt, the better of the black ministers will show Mr. Holder the door for trying to influence what’s preached from the pulpit–those who oblige may also be shown the door by their congregations.

    What’s not clear is why the administration has begun this business so close to the election.

  • lvb-rocks

    Liberalism Is A Sin.

    “Liberalism, whether in the doctrinal or practical order, is a sin. In the doctrinal order, it is heresy, and consequently a mortal sin against faith. In the practical order, it is a sin against the commandments of God and of the Church, for it virtually transgresses all commandments. To be more precise: in the doctrinal order, Liberalism strikes at the very foundations of faith; it is heresy radical and universal, because within it are comprehended all heresies. In the practical order, it is a radical and universal infraction of the divine [natural] law, since it sanctions and authorizes all infractions of that law.”

    “Liberalism is the program of naturalism. Free thought begets free morals, or immorality. Restraint is thrown off and a free rein given to the passions. Whoever thinks what he pleases will do what he pleases. Liberalism in the intellectual order is license in the moral order. Disorder in the intellect begets disorder in the heart, and vice-versa. Thus does Liberalism propagate immorality, and immorality Liberalism.”

    “Liberalism is a living lion going about seeking whom he may devour. Its dreadful doctrine is permeating society to the core; it has become the modern political creed and threatens us with a second revolution, to turn the world over once again to paganism.”

  • Porchlight

    Just a note on the media coverage of this story. The people who left this church are not the reverend’s “followers,” they are members of his congregation. They are followers of Christ, presumably.

    The MSM treats every member of the Christian clergy like David Koresh.

  • Judith M.

    No, Stan, it sounds like Holder is trying to keep the black pastors on the reservation with a little good old-fashioned intimidation. The Congressional Black Caucus is also involved in this travesty. Non-black churches don’t get the “talk” even though they are surely subject to the same intimidation.

  • Ghost of FA Hayek

    Who are they praying to ?
    The same gods all libs do
    Soros and/or government

  • trailertrash

    If my church ever approves homo-sexual marriage I will be leaving for another church as will 99% of the rest of the congregation. This is a no brainer and the church in this story should die.

  • Apostle53

    Amen, Brother Trailer Trash

  • lvb-rocks

    @trailertrash –

    “If my church ever approves of homo-sexual marriage I will be leaving for another church as will 99% of the rest of the congregation.”

    It is convenient to have so many thousands of ‘authentic’ Christian churches to choose from. When one church interprets Scripture in a way that doesn’t fit with our private reading, just find another that does. When our dear Christian president or Rev. Oliver White reads Scripture in a way that approves of same-sex “marriage” and we disagree with it, just open up the yellow pages and find another preacher who reads Scripture our way. But remember, Scripture self-interprets, and all readings are private readings and so all are perfectly valid in the world of modern Christian thinking. If only there were an authority on Biblical interpretation, perhaps we could avoid having a president tell us what Scripture says, and maybe we could stop looking for a church that reads the Bible the right way — our way.

  • browncoat

    Good for those who left. It has taken long enough, but it appears that Christians in the west are beginning to slowly wake up and take a stand

  • Fred

    Anyone know what % of homosexuals are also church going Christians ?

    Seems like the Pastor is scared of “change” too! Like not having enough change in the pocket.

  • Stephen E Dalton

    Every church congergation or parish in the USA that discovers it has a queer minister or priest, ought to just fire him, if they have the whip hand, or if he has the whip hand, walk out on him. Catholics should walk out and send a message to the pope and the bishop that there will be no money in the collection plate until the fairy flies away.

  • Jodie

    lvb-rocks says:
    June 1, 2012 at 10:16 am

    I’m not sure if you are saying that Christian’s cannot read and understand the Holy Bible without a man’s help, but if that is what you are saying, I have to disagree. In fact, to say that Christians cannot read and understand the Bible is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Please read on:

    Matthew 12:30-32
    New International Version (NIV)

    30 “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. 31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

    John 14:25-27
    New International Version (NIV)

    25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

  • http://Huh? 70Stage1

    Thank you Jodie for all the scriptural references, they are dead on, and appreciated.

  • lvb-rocks

    Jodie –
    Can a Christian read and understand the Holy Bible incorrectly?

  • Jodie

    lvb-rocks,

    The Holy Spirit is the intercessor between God and man. It is why Christians are like minded. No one is perfect and no Christian claims to be, but we trust God and believe that Jesus is alive and well and will return.

  • Jodie

    Oh and thanks so much 70Stage1!

  • lvb-rocks

    Jodie –
    Yes, I know that. But can a Christian read and understand the Holy Bible incorrectly? And are you like-minded with the way our Christian president reads and understands the Bible (remember he invoked the Crucifixion and the Golden Rule in his private reading of Scripture, to show how his Christian faith compels him to support ssm)?

  • Jodie

    lvb-rocks,

    I think even you know that Obama is not and never has been a Christian. How about talking about what the Bible actually says?

  • lvb-rocks

    Jodie –
    I think even you know that you are dodging my questions. But let’s get to the point: Do you see no problems with private reading (and thus private conclusions) of Holy Scripture? And does the Bible actually say that Scripture is the sole source of Christian revelation or that private interpretation is valid? And while we’re at it, how can YOU say that Obama is not a Christian as he claims — where do you get such authority? In the world of private Biblical reading and its sliding scale of creeds, what makes Obama’s reading any less valid than yours or mine or Billy Graham’s or Joseph Smith’s or any number of Christians whose faith compels them to support what we would call sin?

  • IslandLifer
  • IslandLifer

    lvb,
    I bet you believe Jeremiah Wrong teaches love and kindness from his pulpit and that Jesse Jackass and Al Sharptongue are true reverends.
    How can you seriously say Obama is a Christian when he PROVES otherwise through his actions? Your atheistic POV is shallow and your arguments are pointless. Those true Christians who read and understand the Word of God through scripture gain testimony of its truthfulness through the Spirit. If you would stop your inner anger towards those with faith and pick up the scriptures and read followed by a prayer you might just surprise yourself in what you really start to discover.

  • Jodie

    lvb-rocks,

    You are asking silly questions. Tell me what Evangelical Christians disagree about. Please give me some examples of these things.

    Obama is pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, pro-communism, pro-Muslim, etc., etc., etc., He abolished the annual Christian prayer service from the out White House in 2009 and replaced it with a Muslim Day of Prayer in the White House.

    Again, you are just being silly and combatative.

  • lvb-rocks

    Jodie –
    I love your fervor for the faith. It’s wonderful. But “what the Bible actually says” has been the cause of endless disagreements, tremendous grief and spiritual confusion for 500 years.

  • Jodie

    lvb-rocks,

    What spiritual confusion? I’m not confused.

    Like IslandLifer said, you would really benefit from reading a Bible – cover to cover. And soon!

  • lvb-rocks

    Jodie –
    The world is spiritually confused precisely because “what the Bible actually says” has been left up to private interpretation/reading. As a result of the rejection of Biblical authority, the Bible can now mean anything anyone says. And certainly it does. My cover-to-cover reading of the Bible will differ from yours and Island’s. Now what? Where do I go, apart from my ‘infallible’ self, to say that I am right or Obama is wrong or Jodie and Island’s Bible reveals all of Christian truth?

    You see, I know where to go. As a Catholic, I’ve faced the incredible and inconceivable idea that something in world is wiser than I am.

  • Texas10

    Lvb-rock appears to want to start at least a mild controversy. I respect my Catholic friends. My first seven years of education were spent at a parochial school where I was treated well and taught well. However, I believe, in short, that Martin Luther got the best of the argument with Desiderius Erasmus. Our paths strongly diverge in that Catholic teaching places its Traditions on the same level as Scripture. Pax vobiscum.

  • IslandLifer

    Lvb says:
    You see, I know where to go. As a Catholic, I’ve faced the incredible and inconceivable idea that something in world is wiser than I am.

    Well there you go! That’s a great start.

  • Alan

    Um, how many divorced people do you suppose were in that church?

    Not trolling, just wondering…

  • ant

    So this preacher thinks those Christians that have stood by their beliefs are afraid of change? So are we to believe then that the word of God changes? Is God fickle? Open to ideas? Wishy-washy?

  • Stephan the Original

    “My cover-to-cover reading of the Bible will differ from yours and Island’s.”

    Possibly because you have no desire to pay attention to the Holy Spirit. You might be reading it like any other book when it isn’t. No-one can derive support of homosexuality or abortion or thieving, etc. etc. from a reading of the Bible inspired by the Holy Spirit. Anybody who supports such things after having been challenged about them and still being defiantly rebellious afterwards cannot be a Christian.

    The danger of giving complete authority to a man-made institution on biblical matters is that they are still affected by corruption and it has been shown throughout history that such power eventually always gets abused. I know Catholics too and admire their position on things like abortion, but it still doesn’t mean I can’t challenge heresies like transubstantiation which simply have no reason for existing within a Christian faith. Even a shallow reading of Hebrews makes that totally clear.

    To reserve the authority of criticism to every single Christian is actually a very good way for God to set things up to restrain evil and parallels the “We the People” beginning in the US Constitution. In case you didn’t realise, if God took away the restraints and allowed the full effects of sin to be realised through common language, one church authority, one government authority, no competition to persuade others for business, we would truly have hell on earth. Disagreement between us is a result of our corruption and our inability to have full knowledge (and is impossible for us to have because we are sinful). But on the flip side, it also makes us better for needing to compete against each other – ie. play by the rules – to survive and even prosper. But about some major topics like sex and right to property – and most importantly, who He is – God has made things abundantly clear in Scripture. Hence why a little individual can critique a church leader and – via a reading of the Constitution – why a US citizen can critique the President.

    You claim that someone else can be wiser than you. That’s true and uncontroversial. But why is it you cannot admit that someone more powerful than you can also be wrong? And given the historical flips on matters of doctrine throughout history, the Catholic church – like any other I hasten to add – does not deserve a place of ultimate authority in anyone’s life. That is reserved for God, who does not change.

    You may think protecting yourself from the error of personal disagreements may make you a better Christian, but you fail to recognise that it increases the chances of other worse errors – for example that of a lazy faith, and also tempting leaders to make corrupt pronouncements and falsely placing upon them the authority of God.

    Back on topic, homosexuality and Christianity are incompatible. Scripture is totally clear about this and that is why I can tell guys like Oliver White to go jump.

  • Antisocialist

    United Church of Christ has always been pro sodomy, what did the people do in that church in the first place? Are they dense?

    Well good they’re out, next time the want to go to Church they would do well in comparing what the churches teaches BEFORE they join up and compare it with their King James Bible.

    If they do they will realize that just a tiny minority is a church you can join these days, most churches are long gone.

  • jeigheff

    Your comments are very perceptive, Stephan the Original.

  • Judith M.

    A little re-enactment of the reformation, ay? Evangelicals and Catholics need to put their doctrinal disagreements aside and work together against this homosexual marriage abomination rather than against each other. In this matter we are unquestionably on the same side.

  • lvb-rocks

    I think the thread has reached its limit. But rather than debate, we can at least think about a few things. I agree with Judith M. We are all on the same side on most social issues, and we must work together to fix those issues. If you read my comment at 8:37 am, you’ll see that we are on the side socially — but know that the basis of Liberalism is Protestantism itself.

    If you were to ask a member in one of the thousands of Protestant denominations about being inspired by the Holy Spirit, it would seem that they’ve all been inspired differently, and in thousands of cases in open opposition to each other. Now I know that this is not possible, so either they haven’t all received actual inspiration, or some are deceived.

    The Catholic Church is not a man-made institution. It is the Church founded by Christ. Christ did not write a book, but He did found a Church. And He promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it. Unless He was wrong (impossible), and His Church was prevailed against only to be reformed 500 years ago (or restored 180 years ago (Mormonism)) and then splintered into thousands of denominations all in disagreement, I fail to see how that is a healthy way to set up anything, especially a foundation on which to base a flourishing life, and to ultimately know and reach God. The Eucharist is the source and summit of Catholic teaching, and it was for all Christians (who were all Catholic) for 1500 years. Hell must have prevailed somewhere along the way if Christianity got it wrong until the Reformation.

    And there is someTHING (not necessarily someONE — that’s obvious) that is wiser than I am. That thing is the Church, the bride of Christ, founded by Christ and protected, as promised, by the Holy Spirit. Men can be wrong and often are. But the Church, in matters of faith and morals, is not. God is unchanging, and His Church, established to teach the truth of God’s revelation to man through Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the teaching authority built into the Church, has remained unchanged in matters central to the true Faith.

    Finally, on Biblical authority (which is how all this started), I never did get an answer to whether a Christian can read and understand the Bible incorrectly. It seems to me that answering it either way puts “private readers” in a bind, so maybe that’s why it was left unanswered. Pick-and-choose Scripture reading is dangerous. It must be read, at the very least, fully within the context of the entire body of Scripture — and that is most difficult to do “privately.”

    At any rate, a sincere Catholic “You’re Welcome” for giving the world the gift of the Book that we all love so much. I’ve just never understood how people can pick fruit from a tree they did not plant, and never acknowledge or give thanks to the one, through truly Divine Inspiration, who planted it. Wishing everyone the goodness, beauty, truth, and fullness of Faith found only in the Catholic Church.

  • Winghunter

    Not a single society in the long history of mankind has EVER confused sexual deviants & marriage http://bit.ly/LquTqM

    The Homosexual Agenda http://www.conservapedia.com/Homosexual_agenda
    “This article notes that the goals and means of this movement include indoctrinating students in public school, restricting the free speech of opposition, obtaining special treatment for homosexuals, distorting Biblical teaching and science, and interfering with freedom of association.”

    Child Molestation by Homosexuals and Heterosexuals http://bit.ly/JCk6WH
    “…In fact, a number of studies performed over a period spanning more than half a century — many of which were performed by homosexuals or their sympathizers— have shown that an extremely large percentage of sexually active homosexuals also participate in child sexual molestation. This is not “homophobia” or “hatred,” this is simple scientific fact….”

    The dark, intolerant, and abusive nature of the gay agenda http://bit.ly/GMla8s
    “…The program borrowed from the Chinese and put forward for gay activism by Kirk and Madsen involves three steps: 1) Desensitization, 2) Jamming, and 3) Conversion…”

    The ‘Gaystapo’ http://bit.ly/qopw6d
    “Homosexual groups have been bullying companies, movie studios, schools, and Christian groups for decades. A recent act of bullying came from GLAAD when the pro-homosexual group demanded that Universal Pictures remove anti-“gay” language from the Ron Howard film, The Dilemma. I’m not the only one making the claim of homosexual Gestapo tactics. A number of liberals have been critical of GLAAD, arguing that it “has turned into one of the biggest bullies in Hollywood.” Consider this report:…”

  • M.Wilson

    lvb-rocks: And who are these angels that would proscribe the scripture’s meaning to us?

    While I have no problem with Catholics as people, the collectivist nature of its system strikes me as too vulnerable to infiltration, corruption, and unchecked abuse of power.

    What would you do, for example, if the leadership of the Catholic church decided to support homosexual behavior and systematically purge condemnations of it from scripture? Fortunately in the US leaving and joining a different church is an option.

    Perhaps if God himself ran the church personally, taking an active and vocal role in setting its agenda and smiting the corrupt I would have a little more trust in it. But as it stands all I see are people, vulnerable to the same vices and pitfalls as anyone else and not to be trusted with any large degree of power.

    I’d rather have the freedom to attend whichever church I see fit.

  • Texas10

    Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. Acts 17:11

    New International Version (©1984)

  • Stephan the Original

    “I think the thread has reached its limit.”

    I think that is code for “I’m struggling to defend what I believe in.”

    “know that the basis of Liberalism is Protestantism itself.”

    Codswallop. You are making the classic mistake of many Catholics, and assuming that we take no notice of all of church authority and elevate personal interpretation above all. That is not true. The biblical position is clear that authority is required, but must have a limitation to it. Paul wrote of false teachers and that every Christian should be on guard against them. How can that happen if you have usurped any recourse to appeal based on what cannot change – ie. the written word? The Catholic church has simply chosen an unbalanced extreme rather than the middle ground on authority.

    “one of the thousands of Protestant denominations”

    This is a common Catholic disparagement of Protestantism but ignores the indisputable fact that many so-called ‘papal infallibilities’ have been reversed throughout history and thus fragment the Catholic church against itself throughout time. It is very easy to argue on a similar basis which Catholic Church is the correct one – the one today, or the one going back 500 years or forward 50 years? And so on… It also ignores an underlying message of the letters to the 7 churches in Revelation 2 & 3 from Jesus and that is that completely different churches with different errors apparently still have a ‘lampstand’ each! Explain that, please! But you claim that something like this “is not possible” and therefore place yourself above Jesus. Cordially, I think I trust Jesus more than you. Disagreements about minor issues do not eclipse general agreement about the fundamentals of the faith. The Church is invisible, by the way – only God truly knows those who are His – but we have ways to be pretty sure of some people!

    “The Catholic Church is not a man-made institution.”

    It most certainly is. That does not mean that God cannot use it, but it is simply arrogant to assert this. The basis of this idea comes from Matthew 16:18 but ignores that Jesus told Peter just 5 verses later ““Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.” Hardly an endorsement of a man alone. What Jesus actually endorsed was what what Peter declared in word in v16 (““You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” – which anybody can do – witness Acts 16:31), not a personal authority for Peter. The Catholic Church is just as man-made and spiritual as any other mainstream Protestant denomination.

    “Christ did not write a book, but He did found a Church.”

    Simplistic and misleading. Christ clearly intended for His words and actions to be written down. For example, He chose Paul (Acts 9:15) with clear intent and allowed John to write things down (note the opposite of Rev 10:4 assumes that it was normally OK to write things down).

    Note also that Peter himself submitted to Paul’s teaching when he was (again) in error. Read Gal 2 and 2 Pet 3:15-16.

    You also make the error of thinking that the Church saves people. No church actually does that. Jesus does that. It is His glory alone.

    “I fail to see how that is a healthy way to set up anything”

    It is not our place to judge God’s plan. 2000 years ago ALL of the followers of Jesus might’ve thought that it was very stupid of God to allow His Son to die on the cross at the time – if Jesus really was God’s son. But now we know the plan was pure infinite genius, grasping the most incredible victory from the most despairing defeat imaginable. So, your failure to see what God sees is not important. One could also argue that the terrible times approaching described in the book of Revelation are also not “healthy”. Again, respectfully, I trust Jesus over you any day.

    “The Eucharist is the source and summit of Catholic teaching”

    The way that the Catholic Church teaches this is a pagan-influenced heresy. Jesus died once and for all and we do not literally eat Jesus and drink his blood. The exchange for our salvation did not happen on earth, it happened in the heavenly tabernacle and has nothing to do with any act on our part. Read Hebrews 8:1-6. As I wrote earlier, even a cursory reading of this book illuminates the error of the Catholic Church here. The time of priests is over because the perfect sacrifice was made 2000 years ago.

    “His Church, established to teach the truth of God’s revelation to man through Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the teaching authority built into the Church, has remained unchanged in matters central to the true Faith.”

    That’s pretty much true of Protestant churches, save for the reference to tradition, which is never “sacred”.

    “I never did get an answer to whether a Christian can read and understand the Bible incorrectly.”

    Yes you did get an answer, you just weren’t paying attention. It was actually implied in my answer to you but I’ll make it clearer for you – of course this can happen, but this is not as bad as the likely poor expression of faith by being lazy or the temptation for birthing a corrupt church because it is answerable to no-one but itself. That is far less “healthy” in my view. You fail to recognise how your position is actually an extreme view and increases the chances of errors occurring You are also assuming that Protestants argue for no authority at all, which is not remotely true.

    “I’ve just never understood how people can pick fruit from a tree they did not plant, and never acknowledge or give thanks to the one, through truly Divine Inspiration, who planted it.”

    Jesus ‘planted’ the way to salvation, and He does not share His glory. I will not give ANY church what is due the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings. You mistakenly assume Protestants routinely view their denomination the way you view the Catholic Church.

    “the goodness, beauty, truth, and fullness of Faith found only in the Catholic Church.”

    Arrogant and belligerent and totally lacking in humility. Get a grip – it is founded by humans and run by humans.

    Having said all this, I do appreciate the fight Catholics take on matters like abortion and homosexuality and I actually find myself in agreement with its teaching on contraception. (There simply is no scriptural basis for it.) But I grow tired of hearing the patronisation of Protestants when it is so clearly indefensible and unattractive. If you want others to join in with you, the least you could do is stop being so utterly proud, which is the very worst of sins.

  • Jodie

    Stephan the Original,

    Wow! Your posts are wonderful! Amazing! Praise God!

  • IslandLifer

    Codswallop indeed.

  • lvb-rocks

    Stephan –

    Things are getting tedious. There is a religious and world history, believe it or not, that isn’t based on a Protestant worldview. The Catholic “balance” is found perfectly in three equally weighted legs of the stool — Scripture, Sacred Tradition (yes, tradition can be sacred), and the teaching authority of the Church founded by Christ. The “extreme” position is found in trying to “balance” on just one leg (Holy Scripture) and then expecting to remain upright in the face of attacks by evil enemies.

    And you make the classic Protestant mistake of assuming that individualism is a healthy base for building a flourishing life directed toward God. There is no more prideful stance than to assume that individualism (a direct outcome of Protestantism) is Biblical, and then to assume that the Catholic Church has no answer to some clever Protestant questions. You are assuming very much into what you think I’ve written, but clearly not said. You thoroughly misunderstand the Eucharist — another outcome of pick-and-choose Scripture reading.

    I’ll address your question on Rev 2 & 3 as taught by the Catholic Church (which condemns pick-and-choose reading). The seven golden lampstands: Each one is modeled on the branched candelabra, or menorah, that flickered in the sanctuaries of Israel (Ex 25:31-39). They symbolize the seven Churches addressed by John (Rev 1:20). The passage evokes Zech 4:2, where a Temple menorah burns with the oil of the Spirit. This is a reminder that the seven Churches remain aglow with the Spirit and depend on him to enlighten others. The Church’s preaching is steady and true, and through it one and the same salvation radiates throughout the world. Announcing the truth everywhere, the Church is the seven-branched candlestick that bears the light of Christ (St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5, 20, 1). Arriving at the “fundamentals” of the Faith outside of something far wiser than our own “infallible” selves (which is what we assert when we reject Church teaching) is the utmost in pride and leads to spiritual chaos.

    All right. We are never going to convince each other or answer all of each others’ questions. We’ve both been guilty of pride (though in my mind my comments were more a result of frustration). Some of the greatest converts to Catholicism (from Newman, to Chesterton, to recent converts like Scott Hahn) have followed your prescription nearly perfectly and come away knowing that the Catholic Church is the one, true Church which reveals the fullness of Christian faith. And for those who have gone the other way, in each case they have lost something of the faith — because that’s easier — rather than gained. This is what I pray for all of my Protestant (and many atheist) friends. Since we are not going to change each other here, I just hope you see that your view of Catholicism is incomplete. We as Catholics in America have always been utterly surrounded by a Protestant culture (now inevitably a post-Christian culture) and have had to deal with a view of Christianity that we see as absolutely, fundamentally flawed. Hence, my frustration of late.

    I’m glad that we agree on so many social issues, and I’m a little surprised to hear that we agree on contraception (I think even Jodie disagrees with us on that). Real wisdom recognizes the seemingly small errors made in the beginning of an idea, and sees the immense, negative consequences that will always come due down the road. In my mind no other institution on earth has dealt with building upon first principles better or more intentionally than the Catholic Church, making her wisdom something to be followed rather than rejected.
    All the best.

  • Jodie

    Nice try lvb – I’ve never made any comment on this site about contraceptives.

    However, since you brought it up, I will say that I fully support the right of religious freedom for the Catholic church and am sickened by Obama’s contraception mandate. But, I also know from Biblical prophesy that unfortunately the Catholic Church will be persecuted in the end times (which is now). I believe that it is good and that it is God’s will for the Catholic Church to sue the Obama administration, but I also believe that is will cause the Church to suffer persecution and result in the destruction of Rome.

    lvb – Why are YOU so adverse to reading the Bible? What are you AFRAID of? What do you have to lose?

  • Alphamail

    lvb-rocks says:

    Your one-and-only Catholic position is also espoused and able to be posited by the hundreds (or thousands) of Catholic child-abusing priests is it not?

    Do they stand behind the Catholic church as you do, when their fingers aren’t doing the walking?

    Nearly every atheist I ever met came from an initial Catholic background.

    Having said that, some of my most respected Christian brothers and sisters are of the Catholic persuasion, but none of them reek of arrogance.

  • lvb-rocks

    Jodie — I have no aversion to reading the Bible. Why would I when the Church founded by Christ Himself is responsible for it? And I read it daily knowing that my private reading relies on the support of people far wiser than I. Be careful about what you “know” from Biblical prophesy as your private reading could be incorrect — unless your inspired reading is somehow truer than every saint in Catholic history. Any idea what those Christians did for four hundred years before the the books of the Bible were finally collated? Not many Bible-only Christians back then. What is your stance on contraception?

    Alpha — Yes, the child-abusing priests who claim to be Catholic are no different than the thousands of child-abusing people (some church and school leaders) who claim to be Christian but are never labeled as such. The Church has been infiltrated, much like America itself, by Liberalism — with the direct aim of fundamentally transforming the very institutions they attack. And as I said earlier, Liberalism is a direct result of Individualism which is a direct outcome of Protestantism. That sounds harsh, but truth often is. You could say that the Church is being ‘protested’ from within by liberal heretics like Pelosi, Biden, and Sebelius and every acting homosexual priest and nun now at the forefront of transforming the Church. And every atheist I know has come from a Protestant background (largely Fundamentalist). Now what?

    So I’m accused of pride and arrogance when Stephan, Jodie and Alpha “humbly” condemn the only institution (apart from Orthodox) with any direct connection to Christ Himself. If the intent of Christ was to establish what we now call Protestantism, with its thousands of denominations and their various, differing views on what Christianity is, then you are all correct and confusion was in the cards from the start. No, Christ intended one Church, and it is the stated goal of His Church to bring all Christians back to her welcoming arms. I’m sorry if I came across as prideful, (I’m usually the very opposite — just frustrated lately), but for Protestants to lay claim to the fullness of Christian truth and then condemn to hell the very Church in which that truth began, and condemn the very Church that has always protected that truth, and condemn the billions of people who solemnly follow her teaching, seems to me like the height of pride and arrogance. Ask any prominent, former-Protestant convert to the Church about their journey. They will all tell you that the most striking moment came when they realized that they had been lied to for years about what the Catholic Church actually is.

  • Jodie

    lvb – Before you try to put any more words in my mouth, I would like to make it clear that I don’t believe that anyone receives salvation based on the church that they attend. The “Church” described in the Bible represents the followers of Jesus – not the followers of any particular religion.

    PS What do you think of Revelation 17 and 18?

  • Judith M.

    Jodie, what is your position on contraception?

  • Judith M.

    …and I’m referring to whether you believe Jesus would have supported its use?

  • Jodie

    Judith M.,

    I haven’t come across anything in the Bible that speaks to me either way about contraceptives, but I don’t think the government should force any insurance company to cover them.

  • Judith M.

    Agreed, the mandate is a gross injustice. But you do realize that all Christians were universally opposed to contraception until the Lambeth council in the 20th Century, right? Why do you suppose that was?

  • Jodie

    Judith M.,

    I don’t know of any evangelical Christians who teach that contraceptives are sinful. And, I don’t trust the Wikipedia version that ALL Christian churches taught against contraceptives.

    Please don’t try to make me out to being against anyone’s religion – I am 100% pro-Bible and pro-Jesus. Simple as that.

  • Judith M.

    It’s not the “Wikipedia version”, Jodie, it’s an historical fact. The first recorded instance of any Christian denomination officially supporting contraception (and then only under limited conditions) was the Anglicans in 1930. If you have evidence to the contrary, please provide it. If you can’t, you might want to reconsider your position that the claim isn’t true.

    Furthermore, I’m pretty sure there are evangelical Christians who oppose contraception on natural law grounds.

  • Judith M.

    Oh, and I’m not accusing you of anything. I’m was just curious about your position on contraception, because Ivb asked you about it, and you didn’t respond. I also think it’s an interesting issue, because all Christians denominations agreed about the evils of contraception until Lambeth. In fact, Ghandi believed it was evil, and he wasn’t even Christian!

  • lvb-rocks

    Jodie — I’ve just checked in before going to bed (just got back from seeing For Greater Glory), and I’ll try to give you an answer tomorrow. Since this thread will be off the front page by tomorrow (and that usually kills it), do check in. I know you don’t expect me to concede that Babylon is the Roman Catholic Church, so I’ll give my best Catholic commentary on Rev 17 and 18.

    p.s. What do you think of Revelation 12:1-6?

  • http://Moonbattery Dirty Al the Infidel

    @Ivb-rocks
    Okay;Rev 12;1-6 The Woman represents the Jews,the Crown of 12 Stars represents the 12 tribes.
    The child represents Yeshua Al Maschiach,The dragon is Satan/the Antichrist. The Women fleeing into the wilderness represents the remaining Believers (The Remnant)which is made up of Righteous Gentiles (by Grace) and Messianic Jews.
    And what don’t you understand about;Lev 18;22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womenkind it is ABOMINATION. Not of a lot of interpretation required there.

  • Judith M.

    Dirty Al, I don’t think anyone is arguing for homosexuality here. Who are you addressing regarding Lev. 18:22?

  • Jodie

    Judith M,

    lvb-rocks made the following statement in his rant agaist Christians above:

    “When our dear Christian president or Rev. Oliver White reads Scripture in a way that approves of same-sex “marriage” and we disagree with it, just open up the yellow pages and find another preacher who reads Scripture our way.”

    Dirty Al’s comment is quite relevant in pointing out what the Bible says about homosexuality and that we Christians are NOT CONFUSED about gay marriage.

    And yes Judith, many oppose birth control pills and such based on health issues. But like I’ve said all along, my point is that I live by the Bible and believe every word of it was written by God FOR US to read and live by.

  • lvb-rocks

    Dirty Al and Jodie — I am a devout Catholic, hence I consider homosexual activity a grave and sinful disorder. Hence I consider the push for same-sex “marriage” to be an evil on society that, if legally accepted, will destroy the core of society — the family. You misread my comments (sarcasm), when I am trying to show that the private reading of Scripture allows for any and every interpretation, all equally ‘valid’ in any number of radically different ways. This is an outcome of a rejection of authoritative Scriptural interpretation, leaving interpretation (a term many Protestants apparently disapprove of) open to individual, private, “inspired” choice. With this view, the president (or anyone), merely by claiming to be a Christian who reads the Bible, can make a ‘valid’ reading of Scripture and be completely correct and fully within his prerogative in doing so. Thus he can find a Biblical justification for same-sex “marriage” (insidiously, he invoked the Crucifixion and the Golden Rule) that compels him to support ss”m”. I’m unsure how any Protestant who rejects a Biblical authority can object to the president’s personally “inspired” reading. My point is to show the error in such an approach to reading Scripture.

    As such, anyone who finds a Biblical support for ss”m” has flunked theology, philosophy and morality. But that person will pass the test of Relativism with flying colors. And all this is a result of accepting personal and private reading without an appeal to an authority that links back to the original compilation of the Bible itself.

  • lvb-rocks

    Jodie — Rather than go through Rev 17 and 18 verse by verse, I’ll just address what I think is your main question: Who is Babylon?

    This city destroyed by God has been identified by scholars through the centuries as Rome, a city infamous in the ancient world for its power, wealth, idolatry, and immorality. In modern times, other scholars have identified the city, not as Rome, but as apostate Jerusalem, for it too had degenerated into a place of godless corruption and bloodshed by the first century. Resolving the issue depends on the date one assigns to the book, how one reads the symbolism of the book, and whether one sees the two interpretations as mutually exclusive. Both interpretations have strength, and both could be legitimate in different ways, with many allusions to the Old and New Testaments. Either way, Catholic teaching says that the destruction of the cities has already taken place — Rome during Nero and Domitian (later overrun by Visigoth barbarians in AD 410, and Jerusalem in AD 70.

    We do not restrict the meaning of apocalyptic events to exclude later historical applications — the message is timeless and is meaningful, for God’s judgment serves as a warning to any and every city thereafter that would choose to turn against the Lord and his disciples. With that in mind, could this point to today’s Church or modern Rome? I don’t think it’s out of the question to think that a subversion will take place within the Church. In fact, all of the Liberal/Modernist/Progressive infiltration that has clearly taken hold in the Church could point to this — which is why all real Catholics must be watchful and vigilant in their defense of true Catholicism. Almost by definition, evil targets good, and satan has targeted the Church with the weapon of Liberalism. This parallels (though not perfectly) what is going on in America. The fight within the country is much the same as the fight within the Catholic Church. Liberalism is destroying the foundations of both. We are fighting to restore these institutions to their original, true purposes. I think we can no more condemn all Americans for this country’s ever-growing Liberal alignment than we can all Catholics for the Church’s. Without constant vigilance, both could become Babylon. The true Church will always exist (as Christ promised) even in the presence of a faux-Church. I’m not sure if an entire country can do the same.

  • Jodie

    When the Bible talks about Jerusalem, it says the name, “Jerusalem”. That is very clear.

    The city with seven hills described in the Bible sounds more like Rome than any other city. In addition, the CATHOLIC PROPHET, St. Malachy, prophesied that there would be one more pope after the current one, his name would be Peter the Roman, and that he would be over the Catholic Church in the last days. During this time, he said that the Catholic Church would suffer persecution, followed by the destruction of Rome. Read for yourself:

    “The last of these prophecies concerns the end of the world and is as follows: “In the final persecution of the Holy Roman Church there will reign Peter the Roman, who will feed his flock amid many tribulations, after which the seven-hilled city will be destroyed and the dreadful Judge will judge the people. The End.” It has been noticed concerning Petrus Romanus, who according to St. Malachy’s list is to be the last pope, that the prophecy does not say that no popes will intervene between him and his predecessor designated Gloria olivæ. It merely says that he is to be the last, so that we may suppose as many popes as we please before “Peter the Roman”. Cornelius a Lapide refers to this prophecy in his commentary “On the Gospel of St. John” (C. xvi) and “On the Apocalypse” (cc. xvii-xx), and he endeavours to calculate according to it the remaining years of time”

    http://www.catholic-pages.com/grabbag/malachy.asp

  • Alphamail

    lvb-rocks says:

    Sorry, but all I’m hearing is pretentious patronizing drivel.

    It’s obvious in your Catholic blessedness, you’re the only one here whose worthy of going to heaven. Pl-e-e-e-e-z-z-z-e-e, take us all with you.

    You say: “The Catholic Church is not a man-made institution. It is the Church founded by Christ.”

    That’s right, I remember now. As He was dying on the Cross, Jesus said, ”Remember, I am a Catholic. I will send you men in pointy hats called Cardinals and Bishops, and you must kneel before you sit, carry beads, and say ‘Hail Mary’ a hundred times before I have someone speak to you in a foreign language. And if you sin, don’t petition me, go to a regular person – called a priest – to confess, and always rely upon the word of some other regular people called saints – who were made saints by other regular people. If you follow these rules you will be filled with the Holy Spirit – because you are a Catholic! If all else fails, don’t rely on a book they will later call the Bible, listen to a regular guy who will be dressed in white in Rome – who will be appointed by other regular guys. And if the situation arises, and some of these regular guys called priests want to sexually terrorize young boys, remember to blame it on the infiltration of Protestants and other blasphemers – heaven knows it can’t actually be a Catholic. And when you read the part of that book they will call the Bible, forget the part where it says to ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’ Some of these neighbors will actually think they understand what my crucifixion means, and they will actually believe they are filled with the Holy Spirit and are destined to join me in heaven. Don’t believe it – set them straight – they’re not Catholic!”

    He said that just before He said, “It is finished.”

  • lvb-rocks

    Alpha –

    I don’t think anything I’ve said comes remotely close to the sheer bigotry and ignorance you just posted. The question of salvation has never come up here, and fyi, the Catholic Church lays no claim to being the only Christian path to heaven. And I don’t recall Christ in His Passion saying anything about finding the fullness of His message in a book that wouldn’t be compiled for four hundred years nor printed for 1400. I guess those early Bible-only Christians were just winging it awaiting the coming of the Holy Bible — or maybe they relied on the framework of the early Church and Sacred Tradition which includes the most central thing in true Christianity, the Holy Eucharist, which carries on to this day.

    Christ said, “It is finished.” What is the “It” He is speaking of?

  • lvb-rocks

    Jodie — Yes, I know of some Catholic prophesy, including Malachy. I wonder why you would trust those prophets when you seem to reject the rest of Catholic teaching. Perhaps it’s just that certain things fit into your wishes, and so picking and choosing those things helps makes your case.
    Anyway, many Catholics are sensing these very things in the internal struggles going on in the Church. That’s why I left open the possibility that the target is the Church itself. Where better for an enemy to finally obtain complete control than in the headquarters of his rival? Does that invalidate the institution from the get-go? No, the Church has undergone many ‘deaths’ throughout history, always returning after a purging of sinfulness. It is similar to what we are fighting for in this country. If America reaches full, fundamental transformation and the Left takes full control, would that invalidate what America once was? I don’t know if a country can come back from a ‘death’ like that, but the Church can. That’s because our God knows His way out of the grave.

  • Jodie

    lvb,

    I am sad that you would rather feel that YOU are RIGHT, than to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I’m guessing this is one reason why your church doesn’t want you to read the Bible:

    1 Timothy 2
    New International Version (NIV)

    Instructions on Worship

    2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

  • Alphamail

    lvb

    The sheer bigotry and ignorance is simple sarcasm aimed at your holier than thou snotty inferences that Catholics are superior.

    Your posts are stilted and condescending, and sound as if you think you are the only one worthy of heaven.

    When you attack someone like Jodie – a person who has taken inordinate flack on this site for her unyielding devotion to Jesus Christ – then you’ve crossed the line.

    Who in God’s name are you to determine who has a personal relationship with our Savior? And by what authority do you consider someone is filled with the Holy Spirit? Jodie has done more to inspire people toward Christianity on this site, and has offered pertinent Scripture at poignant times, when others were quiet.

    You have done more to repulse people of faith, and those who may be inquiring into it, in only a few zealous pontificating and bloviating posts than anyone on this site in years.

    Some Christians know that the Lord doesn’t have us jump through hoops to love Him – that comes from Koresh types like you – He only wants our praise, our thanksgiving, and our unqualified devotion.

    Yours is obviously a world of rules, rituals, restrictions, and manmade guidelines much like the Pharisees, and people must abide or risk rejection.

    It is written: “So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature………but if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law…”

  • lvb-rocks

    Jodie — You are utterly impossible. You have no concept of what the Catholic Church teaches. You have not answered a single direct question that I have asked you. My unstated claim to rightness pales in comparison to yours and others.

    I’ll ask four more questions, not expecting an answer from you, ever. Why would the Church be inspired to produce a document (the Holy Bible) that, in the mind of Protestants, contradicts the teachings, actions and very existence of itself? Is it possible that all of Catholicism is and can be proven to be entirely Biblical (as some of the greatest Protestant Bible scholars have come to realize)? Why would a Catholic prophet remain Catholic when he foresaw his own Church as the “whore of Babylon?” And finally, again, can a Christian read and understand the Bible incorrectly?

    Look, this whole thread started because I said that I see an error and a danger in personal, private Bible “reading” that will inevitably reach conclusions that are not necessarily true. Without authoritative teaching on something as important as Holy Scripture, each and every one of us becomes in some way our own little pope and our own little church. Thus anyone can claim to be a Christian who reads his Bible and find a justification or a condemnation for nearly anything. That is dangerous and un-Biblical.

    That’s all, Jodie. You will be in my prayers.
    p.s. I have the most intimate and personal relationship with Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

  • lvb-rocks

    Alpha — Up until my last post I never mentioned a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. I never mentioned at all how someone can be filled with the Holy Spirit, but others have, indicating that they are their own authority in determining it, and then have some authority in interpreting Scripture. And I never mentioned salvation until my last response to you. I’m just trying to point out the dangers in rejecting an authority in reading Scripture. That is all.

    I have said that I love Jodie’s fervor for the faith. I have said that I think it is wonderful. She is on fire for Christ, and that is beautiful. I just want for her, and for everyone, that they find the courage, intellectual honesty and spiritual integrity needed to see the truth, beauty, goodness and wisdom in the Church founded by Christ. That is not easy when so much of one’s opposition is based on a lifetime of lies told about that Church.

    Will you answer my question about the “It” in “It is finished.”?

  • Jodie

    Alphamail says:
    June 5, 2012 at 11:32 am

    Thank you so much for the kind words about me! I am so grateful that you have seen me and my posts in that way. It means everything to me.

    lvb,

    You are asking me ridiculous questions, with false premises, all the while ignoring everything that God is trying to teach you.

    I am going to shake the dust off of my feet and move on.

  • lvb-rocks

    Jodie — This is your typical response. None of my questions are silly or ridiculous or based on false premises. You are just being challenged and don’t like it. If you think the “It” in “It is finished” is a ridiculous thing to consider, or if you think it’s silly to consider whether your view of the Catholic Church might be false, then you will remain a good Christian, but perhaps a shallow one incapable of truly interpreting Scripture not to mention reading comments on a blog.

    Alpha has come to your defense, but I have said I love your wonderful fervor for Christ, hoping that you find the fullness of faith that brings real freedom and joy. My frustration has temporarily concealed that joy, but I pray that you find it in you to do some honest investigation into the truth that Christ wants for you.

  • Alphamail

    lvb

    Honest to God, you don’t know Him.

    Even at this late hour you beg for Jodie to hear you and hear your point of view. Sir, with all due respect, you don’t know Jesus Christ – our living and consummate Savior – and you seem to be lost in your efforts to condemn others.

    Jesus Christ is my boss. He is my Christ. He lays no rules down before me. I cry daily for mercy, acceptance, glorification and guidance. I am humbled when He responds.

    When people like you try to take His place by pontificating and telling us what to believe and how to act, all I see is Satan working his sleazy agenda.

    Your bullshit christianity (small c), still intimates Jodie needs some honest investigation into the truth.

    Sir, Jodie and I don’t have your Satanic rules to guide us to the truth.

    Jesus Christ is Lord, He is Blessed, He is the Way, He is the innoculant againt evil (you), He is the quiet, gracious, forgiving lover of those who have sinned, He is the way for those who are truly sorry – and He will bless and forgive all us who are unworthy.

    You sir, by the way you speak, have never been unworthy, so you are obviously at the head of God’s line. Please go first, o’perfect soul.

    Those of us who don’t know doctrine, who don’t follow inane rules, who don’t condemn others, but who experience daily the manifestation of Christ in our lives, have to feel a heartfelt loss for those of you who still believe the Spirit is in a book and not in the human heart.

    God fills my soul. He has invaded my heart. He dwells in me. He is my being.

    You sir, are filled only by God’s rules, but not by Him.

  • Alphamail

    lvb

    I went back and read your last post. You are a twisted degenerate child of Satan.

    You said to Jodie, “I love your wonderful fervor for Christ,” then you said, “…you will remain a good Christian, but perhaps a shallow one incapable of truly interpreting Scripture.”

    I’m not defending Jodie – she’s a website contributor – I don’t know her personally, I only know of her unwavering duty to Christ, but you sir are a mind-fucking demon from the nether regions.

    What faith gave you such blasphemous disrespect and vile condemnation? Certainly not that of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

    It is written: “Get behind me Satan, you have not in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”

  • Jodie

    God bless you AlphaMail!

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