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Mar 19 2012

Big Ammo Order for DHS

It’s great that the Age of Hope & Change has been such a boon to the guns and ammo business, but in light of alarming preparations to impose martial law, this is ominous:

As many as 450 million rounds of .40-caliber ammunition are being produced for U.S. government agencies by ATK of Minnesota.

The order comes under an indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity contract from the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement for HST bullets.

“We are proud to extend our track record as the prime supplier of .40-caliber duty ammunition for (Homeland Security), ICE,” said Ron Johnson, president of ATK’s Security and Sporting group. “The HST is a proven design that will continue to serve those who keep our borders safe.”

Whatever Homeland Security plans to do with this potent hollow-point ammo, it won’t be keeping our borders safe, if the past three years are any guide. More likely it will be keeping the Regime safe from “terrorists” — i.e., those of us still American enough not to be on board with “fundamental transformation.”

Obama’s Weather Underground friends, who launched his political career, estimated that 25 million “diehard capitalists” would have to be “eliminated” before Hopey Change could be imposed on the USA in all its utopian splendor. That gives Homeland Security 18 rounds for each of us.

ATK-logo
Selling them the rope — or rather, the bullets.

On a tip from Karyn.

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  • AC

    That’s 450 million rounds more than DHS has put into the heads of paramilitary cartel intruders.

  • Sinister66

    If it looks like the next POTUS is going to screw with my business then I think I’ll move over to the ammo producing business. There is a small little family owned business that just makes jacketed bullets. no casings, no loading. almost completly automated and generating about $10,000 in revenue per hour.

  • StanInTexas

    Looks like I need to pick up a few more boxes of .40 cal.

  • Dyrewulf

    Well, my opinion is “BRING IT,” we’ll see what the final score is, since my first go-to is a .300 RUM, and my LAST go-to is a .454 Casull. They’ll get me, but I’ll have a good score by the time they do.

  • Had it up to here :-/

    Ditto, Stan, and a few other calibers too.

  • AC

    With supplies of the short & weak depleted, perhaps people will have to switch to the real 10mm.

    /ducks

  • lao

    I do wish someone could explain how an ALLEGED, 1969 remark, when Obama was eight years old, dictates DHS policy 43 years later.

    The paranoia, it is STRONG with this bunch.

  • groucho marxist

    Even Hitler found gas to be cheaper…..uh…… nevermind

  • StanInTexas

    Birds of a feather, Lao!

  • fxdwg69

    This is a non story, folks. A contract was awarded to provide ammo to DHS and all 22 of it’s component agencies. This happens every couple of years. That includes some 30,000 armed employees. Each employee qualifies 2-4 times a year, some more than that. That’s 150-200 rounds per shooter, per qualification session. Do the math. After having our pay frozen for two years, nobody is in a hurry to support this administration, especially with Holder as AG.

  • FrankW

    Here’s the explanation:
    1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWMIwziGrAQ, this deals with alleged.
    2. ayers is in WU
    3. ayers is radical/commie
    4. bammy admits he gravitated towards radicals and commies in books
    5. ayers has career planning meeting for bammy
    6. bammy admits he gravitated towards radicals and commies in books
    7. bammy is titular head of dhs
    8. dhs purchasing ammo (in mega-quantities) for unknown purposes
    8. dhs has history of poor target identification, basically stating my profile (white, male, veteran, conservative with no history of violence) is more dangerous than a raghead screaming allu snackbar while waving an AK and wearing a semtex turban.
    In this case it is not paranoia, it is neither unwarranted, exaggerated, and plenty of justification and evidence are present to necessitate concern.
    Tie this with bammy’s new executive order allowing him to take full control during an emergency and you get almost all of the control elements needed to form a dictatorship. I will bet you that somewhere he has a executive order allowing for the suspension of elections.

  • SeaFoamGreen

    Not to worry fxdwg, there are just some here who are itching for a shooting revolution.

    Also, I think 100,000,000 armed American citizens are a wee bit of a deterrence to any attempted coup. If not, then let Holder and Obama try it.

    We The People kicked British ass, and they were tough! Pussies like Obama should keep that in mind.

    Live free or die, baby.

  • Someone Once

    At least they are using a capitalist enterprise to produce ammo rather than forming a new ‘Government Arms’ manufacturing division chock full of non-qualified affirmative action hires.

    I believe there is a motive to use private contractors for this: Even Communists know quality comes from the private sector and they want to make sure their bullets are good quality.

  • lao

    LOL frank!! Yesterday, even though a guy’s own website says he was in the Tea Party, you were not convinced.

    Now look at the hoop jumping you go through to make your case against DHS. Like I said, the paranoia is STRONG.

  • StanInTexas

    The guys own website, Lao? You mean if I make a website that says I am a starting pitcher with the New York Yankees, then it will be true???

    You just don’t know when to quit, do you?

  • lao

    (rolls eyes) The guy is in jail stanwee. Who put the notice on the website?

  • StanInTexas

    He probably did a long time ago.

    You can claim to be anything on the internet, you idiot. The REAL tea party says they never heard of this guy, yet YOU want to try and paint the entire Tea Party guilty of his crimes becasue HE claims to be their leader.

    Hey Lao, I am President of the United States. It’s right here on the internet, so it must be true, RIGHT??????

  • lao

    stanwee, is it too much to suggest that you READ before you type?

    lao says:
    March 18, 2012 at 10:49 am
    San Diego Tea Party

  • AC

    Even if the claims lao is making are indeed correct, that still doesn’t change the vastly law abiding Tea Party base, compared to the common radicalism and hooliganism at OWS.

  • StanInTexas

    DId you read the post I made to you on the CURRENT open thread that shows the real area tea party disavowing this idiot?

    No, you would rather read his website, make your idiotic conclusion jump, and then paint the entire tea party with the actions of thie wanna-be!

    Typical of you, Lao!

  • FrankW

    I am the King of England. This website says it, is it true? Long Live the Me!
    Maybe the guy considers himself a member, last I checked the definition of membership was like a contract, a meeting of the minds must occur. In this dweeb’s case, one side denies it (the TP), the other has a dubious claim. The basic tenant of contract law is not present.
    Now as to my hoop jumping, is anything I listed wrong (besides the numbering, I really otta proofread better)? Nope. You asked for an explanation, I gave one. Do I subscribe to it? I dunno, I have yet to decide.
    Is it understandable that people distrust bammy and dhs (considering their history), yes.

  • lao

    stanwee, your redundant whining was answered in the previous open thread, not that you pay attention as you have just demonstrated.

    More far right paranioa, whining “poor, poor, pitiful me” because THEY see the Tea Party movement being blamed for the violence of one flake. You can’t find any such accusation from me, or from the mainstream media.

    Meanwhile, back on topic, no surprise, THIS THREAD, demonstrates the far right trying to tie Obama to an alleged remark made 43 YEARS AGO.

    Pardon my derisive laughter.

  • AC

    Meanwhile, back on topic, no surprise, THIS THREAD, demonstrates the far right trying to tie Obama to an alleged remark made 43 YEARS AGO.

    The far left frequently throws fits over things allegedly said 2000 years ago.

  • lao

    Sure frank, your second #8 – the old, old, paranoid whine that the DHS report was all about you. It wasn’t.

  • FrankW

    Ok fine I will play by the lao rule for a moment, what exactly is the statute of limitations? 1 year, 10 years, 25 years, or is it a when you say so thing?

  • StanInTexas

    Lao,

    So you did not blame the Tea Party for ” the violence of one flake”? The tell me why you posted this headline, and then take a shot at a tea party member?

    lao says: March 18, 2012 at 8:38 am
    SAN DIEGO TEA PARTY LEADER ARRESTED FOR KIDNAPPING, RAPE
    bobby, San Diego is your home town. Are you on a first-name basis with this guy?

    Sorry, you lost this argument yesterday and again today.

    And as far as your “back on topic” comment, I subscribe to many things that were said long before I was born, like the Bible. It is not so strange that Obama would follow a thought made many years ago.

    I mean, he did teach Alinsky without meeting him, right?

  • StanInTexas

    Frank, (I’m soryy, Your Royal Highness)

    Playing by Lao’s rules means that you are childish, idiotic, and prone to intense bouts of hypocrisy. Remember that if you descend to a fool’s level, he will just beat you over the head with his experience.

  • Dr. Dave

    I have a couple of handguns which are chambered for the .40 S&W. It’s not my favorite round. It’s essentially a slightly expanded 9mm round. In terms of efficiency and performance it’s very difficult to improve on the the 9 mm or the .45 ACP. The .40 S&W was an attempt to replicate the performance and control of the 9mm while emulating the shear stopping power of the .45 ACP without the considerable recoil. The federal government pushed for the development of this round. It had to be a round fired from a semi-automatic and it had to have a recoil profile considerably less than that of the .45 ACP (or the venerable 10 mm auto)but was just as controllable as a 9mm. The FBI wanted greater stopping power but in a round women agents could qualify with (I’m not making this up). The military still uses the 9mm but most domestic law enforcement agencies have adopted plastic guns that shoot the .40 S&W.

    Functionally, your best “man-stoppers” are the .357 mag and the .45 ACP. These just aren’t “sexy” rounds these days. the venerable .357 mag is fired from a revolver which is “so old school” (despite being safer, more accurate and effective). The 1911 is a big ol’ hog leg. It’s not as desirable as a butt ugly plastic gun for some reason.

    A previous commenter quite accurately pointed out that all these gun totin’ G-men have to qualify every 3-6 months. Further, unlike target shooting, when you’re practicing your shooting for practical applications it’s best to shoot the same rounds you’ll carry in the field. So this 450 million round purchase is not all that exciting. Still…a high quality jacketed hollow point ain’t cheap.

    I’m set up to reload for about 12 different calibers. I either reload or load my own from scratch from new components. I would worry less about the ammo the government buys and more about how many rounds YOU have on hand.

  • Jeff

    Note to self: Buy a 40SW handgun, buy stock in ATK, put in more practice time. Buy 40SW ammo, buy even more ammo.

  • SeaFoamGreen

    Well, a 6″ .44 S&W may not be “sexy”, but when someone breaks into my house and is looking down a barrel with a diameter just slightly less than a Howitzer, it will give them pause. “Old School” has a way of doing that.

    They almost never misfire or jam, either…and since I like a special load (as opposed to the mag), the gentler recoil means better aim.

    “…well do ya’……..punk?”

  • StanInTexas

    Jeff, if I may suggest the Sig P226 in .40 S&W.

    And I ALWAYS need one more box of ammo! ;)

  • lao

    frank, as recently as last year, Ayers told O.W.S. protestors who specifically asked, NOT to use violence.

    Even if we take the “25 million” remark as factual, to claim that some macho chat among a bunch of radicals who were regarded as fringe 43 years ago, and presume it has significance now, is beyond stupid.

  • StanInTexas

    SeaFoamGreen, my 12 guage Mossberg 500 has the same effect, with the added bonus of the unmistakable sound of a shell racking!

  • StanInTexas

    Lao, that is small comfort, coming from a man who bombed, killed, and then bragged that he didn’t do enough.

    And I would still like to hear the statute on saying something?

  • whotothewhat

    It is most likely the Government stocking up, budgets cleared at the start of this quarter. Besides our Government when comes to anything is like a drunk elephant on roller skates, big noisy and scary but not much else. I most likely get more time behind a trigger (range time) then most fed’s except maybe tactical units. Hell play a couple of hundred hours of Battlefield 3 and you will have better hand-eye coordination then most law enforcement.

  • hiway280z

    Remember Waco and the ridge where the Indians were.

  • lao

    Last Stand Hill?

  • FrankW

    As we so decreed, the explanation was posted (and validated by our Royal Historians, and as such is beyond challenge). In the words of Mel Brooks “It’s good to be King”. OK, my boots ain’t quite tall enough so I will abdicate now.
    As for him telling ows to not use violence, how does that retract his actual use of violence in the past? And how did ows play into this again? After further review the referees have removed the score for TP. The scoreboard now reads TP – 0, ows 1,500+.
    Sorry, Stan I was just trying to get a statute of limitations since lao was pushing the 43 years thought.
    BTW, wu did more damage than the all of the militia’s you libs continually whine about combined. So fringe might be pushing it a bit. Fringe is not an actual terrorist group with executed violent missions.

  • AC

    The .40S&W is a cut down version of the 10mm auto, created out of complaints over the power of the full 10mm auto.

    The 10mm auto compares favorably to the .357 magnum, yet offers the advantage of an automatic action.

    It’s a great anti-goblin round for those who can handle it. If a Glock 20 won’t get the job done, you should have brought a rifle.

  • StanInTexas

    No apology necessary, Your Majesty, I thought Lao woul fall in your trap as well. Guess he believes nothing more that 40 years old. I wonder how he feels about the Civil Rights Movement? But who cares, that was all said and done when Obama was a child!

    Hey, I’m pitching for the Yankees tonight. Wanna come watch?

  • FrankW

    Can’t, in my alter ego as Peyton Manning I have football practice in Denver. As soon as I am done with that I have to switch to my Danica Patrick persona and finish dead last in a race.

  • StanInTexas

    You are Danika????

    I WILL be needing an autographed picture! BEFORE you crash your car in the next race!

  • lao

    Let’s see, a remark an FBI informer CLAIMED was made, 43 years ago in a group of radicals sitting around BS-ing, is given the same weight as:

    a) The Bible (AC @1:31)

    b) Teaching Alinsky in a University course (stanwee @1:36)

    c) The entire Civil Rights Movement (stanwee @2:28)

  • AC

    in a group of radicals sitting around BS-ing

    They weren’t sitting around BS-ing. The Weather Underground was an active terrorist organization which planned and executed terrorist attacks and was preparing for a communist insurgency.

  • StanInTexas

    Lao,

    Communism, Fascism, and Nazism all started by “a group of radicals sitting around BS-ing“. Any radical idea can grow legs and mature if the people that believe in it gain power. And your only rebuttal to it has been the length of time ago it was said.

    Even you have to see what a truly impotent argument you have tried to advance. Too bad you do not know when you have hit bottom and need to stop digging!

  • SNuss

    @ AC: You forget, Leftist Liberals are considerate and tolerant, just ask them. It is those vile TEA Party members, and our veterans, who break the law, cause violence, and damage property.

  • lao

    Sure AC and their planning and execution just FAILED to produce 25 million casualties, but don’t worry, 43 years later, you figure the DHS is going to follow through.

    Get real.

  • SR
  • AC

    The Weathermen were killers who should have been sent to the chair for their crimes. The organization itself existed to further communism and terrorism.

  • Sam Adams

    The same radical thoughts of the Weatherman were responsible for sending 50 million to their deaths in the USSR, and 70 million in China.

    Marxism has killed far more people in the 20th century than any other philosophy.

    BTW, yes, I have an ugly plastic gun which fires 40 cal S&W, and I’m quite happy with it. The 9 mm round has been underpowered since its inception.

  • bill jones

    “If the opposition disarms, well and good. If it refuses to disarm, we shall disarm it ourselves.” Joseph Stalin

  • FrankW

    “Sitting around BS’ing” is also called “conspiracy to commit ….” in legal circles and is a crime if the … is a felony.
    All I keep accessible at the house is a .22. Sig Mosquito with about 4 mags and a red dot sight. I know it is just a .22, but a bigger piece just makes more mess to clean up. Considering most of the interior walls are 3/8 Sheetrock at my house and the doors are hollowfill, I really don’t need high velocity high penetration, just speed and accuracy. Sides most bad guys have just enough weapons training to know which end the bullets come out of.

  • Sam Adams

    Fact is, FrankW, that bad guys aren’t keen on the idea of being shot with a 22, even though it isn’t much of a “stopping” round. A lot of grannys have stopped bad guys from continuing their evil deeds with a 22 revolver.

    Myself, I have a couple of 12 gauges loaded with birdshot to take care of those who come by uninvited. There are a few slugs which will follow the bird shot (if necessary).

    Yeah, it will probably take professional carpet cleaning to take care of the mess.

  • Goodness

    The government is gearing up to use drones in the US, and Obama just signed that Orwellian EO.
    Who gives a crap about .40 cal roundsfor an army of incompetents, or the IRS getting puny 4 shot pump entry guns for that matter? FWIW, I have shot*almost* eveything over the last two decades and I personally prefer the Gaston’s Drastic Plastic loaded with .40 HST or Golddot.

  • Bill T
  • AC

    Birdshot delivers insufficient penetration to quickly stop an adrenaline or drug crazed intruder hell bent on continuing a criminal assault. Even someone who isn’t jazzed up on something might be able to get a shot of his own off.

    Our goal is to hit vitals and induce hypovolemic shock.

  • fxdwg69

    @SeaFoamGreen- you are right on the money. America’s hunters and outdoors enthusiasts are the world’s largest standing army. I can’t think of anyone in the fed, aside from Obamao’s toadies, who would actually consider an attempted coup. As far as toadies go, I doubt they would get very far. Liberal “revolutionaries” talk a good game, but when the KaKaa hits the rotary oscillator, we won’t see any of them behind a weapon.

  • Goodness

    FrankW: I don’t know how many rounds you have through that weapon , but my experience with rimfire autos is that they jam.I practiced clearing drills with any pistol I used as CC and it is extremly difficult–again–in my experiece to clear a jammed .22 auto quicky without using a multi round failure drill. This requires removing the magazine and manualy operating the slide until the projectiles/expended cases are cleared.The Mossad kills goblins real good with .22 Berettas, but they’re hitsquads.

    Sam Adams: What AC said. Use #4 buck or larger, and get lower recoil shells.

  • AC

    The FBI uses a reduced recoil loading of #1 buck as its standard shotgun round. #2-4 might be okay if your situation requires smaller pellets, however buck is a necessity for swift incapacitation.

    Fundamentally, anything which will stop an intruder is going to go through drywall and plywood.

  • AC

    The spam filter just canned my link to The Box o’ Truth. I’m not sure why that site is banned. You can find their tests on drywall and wood through Google.

  • TonyD95B

    The U.S. Army issued me the M9 Beretta and I learned to shoot “expert” with it, but personally I prefer it’s predecessor.

    M1911A1 with .45 ACP 230 grain FMJ military ball.

    It’ll feed every time, work every time, hit like a sledgehammer, and has a reassuring boom with a strong push for recoil – no supersonic crack or annoying muzzle flash or abrupt recoil.

    It was the right tool for the job a century ago – and it still is today.

    Plus, it feels really good in the hand, and there’s that big bore and reassuring / intimidating ratcheting “c-clack” as the slide goes forward….

    …..last time I needed to defend myself with one, that was all it took.

  • Jim

    That gives Homeland Security 18 rounds for each of us.

    Yeah, that’s probably not enough

  • Ghost of FA Hayek

    frank, as recently as last year, Ayers told O.W.S. protestors who specifically asked, NOT to use violence.
    Lao

    We went through all that already
    Ayers knows there are enough crazies on the left to go around, but they need to be egged on (1)

    “You should use your brilliance, your humor, your wisdom, your body to dramatize the violence that exists. But we do not live in a neutral – not when there’s a one trillion dollar military budget, the biggest in the world. Not when they’re recruiting kids to be in the service, not when every athletic event begins with guns and marching – that’s a violent culture and that’s where we live.”

    B Ayers
    (1) Dramatize the violence that exists ?

  • AC

    Yuck, I feel dirty just reading that moonbattery.

    Here’s the antidote:

    “Hoplophobia is a mental disturbance characterized by irrational aversion to weapons, as opposed to justified apprehension about those who may wield them.”

    “We continue to be exasperated by the view, apparently gaining momentum in certain circles, that armed robbery is okay as long as nobody gets hurt! The proper solution to armed robbery is a dead robber, on the scene.”

    “All the people constitute the militia — according to the Founding Fathers. Therefore every able-bodied man has a duty under the Constitution to become part of the “well-regulated” militia, specifically to understand and perform well with the individual weapon currently issued to the regular establishment. . . . Thus one who has not qualified himself with the M-16 may not be considered to be a responsible citizen.”

    “One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not agree that ‘violence begets violence.’ I told him that it is my earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure—and in some cases I have—that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy.”

    “One cannot legislate the maniacs off the street… these maniacs can only be shut down by an armed citizenry. Indeed bad things can happen in nations where the citizenry is armed, but not as bad as those which seem to be threatening our disarmed citizenry in this country at this time.”

    “The media insist that crime is the major concern of the American public today. In this connection they generally push the point that a disarmed society would be a crime-free society. They will not accept the truth that if you take all the guns off the street you still will have a crime problem, whereas if you take the criminals off the street you cannot have a gun problem.”

    - Col. Jeff Cooper

  • Jester

    The paranoia, it is STRONG with this bunch

    What *exactly* do you suggest we do with this news, lao?

  • Robert Peahl

    TonyD95B@6:13
    Yes, the M1911A1 is an incredible weapon, and my choice for home invasions. In addition to the aspects you mention, it tends to produce “immediate system shock” even if you don’t get a body mass shot.
    It is also an extremely easy weapon to disassemble, reassemble, and perform a function check on. As an armor crewman on the M60A1/3 it was the personal weapon we were issued, in the (unlikely) event we survived a disabling hit and were forced to become grunts.
    I bought one in 1983 when I got out and it still functions perfectly.

  • Bath House Barry

    lao says: March 19, 2012 at 1:59 pm- “frank, as recently as last year, Ayers told O.W.S. protestors who specifically asked, NOT to use violence.”

    Fo’ shizzle my nizzle. We haven’t issued the machetes yet.

    lao says: March 19, 2012 at 1:59 pm- “Even if we take the “25 million” remark as factual, to claim that some macho chat among a bunch of radicals who were regarded as fringe 43 years ago, and presume it has significance now, is beyond stupid.”

    Oh, it’s significant, bro. I dig macho talk. When Billy turns on the tough guy stuff, I’m his to command. Spread this, stick in that, you name it, I’ll do it, dog. I even wear that frock he likes. If Billy big buns sez pop a cap in 25 million asses, I’ll be holdin’ a glock sideways, tout de suite. Gnomesayin?

  • SR

    Why the 2nd Amendment and Why the Castle Doctrine. God bless Texas.

    http://urbangrounds.com/2012/03/castle-doctrine-magnolia/

  • AlphaMail

    Lao the America-and-liberty-hating Canuck at 2:41 pm

    lao’s quote, “… in a group of radicals sittin around BS-ing.”

    Behold innocent BS: (engineered by “Professor” Ayers).

    BS = Bomb Sites

    South African Consulate in New York City

    ROTC Buildings

    ITT Latin American Headquarters

    Draft and Recruitment Centers

    The Pentagon

    The U.S. Capitol

    National War College

    Israeli Aircraft Industries Building

    MIT Research Center

    Harvard War Research Center for International Affairs

    National Guard Headquarters, Washington, D.C.

    Presidio Army Base and MP Station

    Federal Offices of H.E.W.

    Long Island City Courthouse

    New York City Police Headquarters

    103rd Precinct of the New York City police

    Haymarket Police Statue

    Department of Corrections, Albany, N.Y.

    Office of California Prisons, Sacramento

    Marin County Courthouse

    Department of Corrections, San Francisco

    And, the firebombing of Chicago Police Cars, abetting the escape of Timothy Leary from the California Men’s Colony, and the firebombing of a New York City Judge’s home, who was presiding against them. The Judge, with his wife and children, were forced to flee their burning home.

    lao is fractured detritus fallen from the rock-solid cliff of human righteousness.

    He is sand among stones.

  • http://furtheradventuresofindigored.blogspot.com/ Indigo Red

    “That gives Homeland Security 18 rounds for each of us.”

    Damn! I’m harder to kill than I thought.

    That reminds me of a 1963 joke:
    Who fired the last bullet into John Kennedy’s body?
    300 CIA sharpshooters!

  • Mepluribusunum

    @Indigo Red – I thought the same thing…only I was thinking of Polk County, FL Sheriff Grady Judd whose posse shot a cop killer 68 times…”because that’s all the bullets [they] had.” If we don’t get the current OWH (occupy White House)anticapitalist out of there for his second assault, er, term, we are all dead, literally.

  • TED
  • Adam

    “Marxism has killed far more people in the 20th century than any other philosophy.”
    It has also killed twice as many people as the Iraq War, the War in Afghanistan, and every major 20th Century war COMBINED!

    btw, gotta love how, in a typical display of lao’s hypocrisy, he feels that Ayers and his buddies’ scheming to commit mass genocide when they gained power yet not really doing anything about it was no big deal, just some guys BSing, yet feels that the Hutaree Militia (His trump card in his “Only conservatives pose a violent terrorist threat to America, never liberals” argument, even though the only one of them who belonged to any political party was a Democrat) scheming to kill police officers without actually doing it posed a serious threat and are proof that conservatives are the #1 terrorist threat to America.
    With this rapist claiming he was a Tea Partier and lao holding him up as an indictment of the Tea Party as a whole (Even though the Tea Party has said they are not connected to him), if the situation were reversed and he were an Occupier, lao would briefly denounce him as a “Lone flake” then never mention him again

  • Sam Adams

    AC says:
    March 19, 2012 at 4:17 pm

    Birdshot delivers insufficient penetration to quickly stop an adrenaline or drug crazed intruder hell bent on continuing a criminal assault. Even someone who isn’t jazzed up on something might be able to get a shot of his own off.
    _____________

    Thanks for the info; looks like it is time to go shopping again. In the meantime, apparently I will just have to rely upon some slugs (and a plastic pistol with 40 cal S&W.

    Do I get any extra credit if my wife is firing at the same time?

  • lao

    Adam, the Tea Party rapist IS a lone flake.

    BUT, what has been most amusing is the frantic efforts by the far right to deny, deny, deny and to whine, whine, whine.

    I’ll point to your statement as a perfect example of both: With this rapist claiming he was a Tea Partier and lao holding him up as an indictment of the Tea Party as a whole (Even though the Tea Party has said they are not connected to him)…

    Considering that the website San Diego Tea Party issued a statement AFTER the accused rapist was jailed, (linked @1:15 pm) referring to him as a member and Volunteer for San Diego Tea Party, it’s pretty stupid to try to deny the guy had a connection with that group.

    Was the guy a member of a different Tea Party group, the SCTRC? No. Nobody claimed he was.

    I’ll challenge Adam to produce a quote of mine to indicate I am holding him up as an indictment of the Tea Party as a whole.

    What I have done is laugh at conservatives making that whining claim which, as usual, they pull out of their oh-so-sensitive little heads.

    And turning this back to the actual topic, what are conservatives actually doing themselves? That’s right, they are making an indictment of D.H.S. and Obama by holding up an ALLEGED remark made 43 years ago.

  • AC

    Do I get any extra credit if my wife is firing at the same time?

    Not with birdshot.

    There are three ways an encounter can end:

    1. The goblin’s central nervous system is obliterated.
    2. The goblin loses consciousness from hypovolemic shock.
    3. The goblin realizes he is beat and voluntarily ceases his criminal attack.

    #1 and #2 can only be assured through adequate penetration of adequate caliber with adequate energy transfer.

    #3 puts the choice and your future into the hands of the criminal. Many criminals who take a load of birdshot will cease their felonious attack, however, unless you get both eyes or the jugular, that cessation will be by the criminal’s choice, not physical incapacitation. Giving the criminal a choice is a losing strategy.

    Slugs are a bad idea unless you live alone in the country. Slugs will pass clean through a goblin and kill anything which happens to be in the path on the other side. They’re irresponsible on the same level as using something like 7.62×39 AP for home defense.

    Appropriate home defense loadings are:

    Shotguns: #1-4 buck, reduced recoil, 20ga or larger.

    Pistols: Premium/bonded JHP, 9mm or larger.

    Rifles: This is tricky, as most are either insufficient or will overpenetrate. Stick to a HD .223/5.56 unless you know what you’re doing.

    Your situation may be different if you have 8 kids, live in a NYC apartment building, live in a remote mountain cabin, or any other assumption which differs from the typical suburban/exurban home.

    Sounds like you’re almost good to go. One box of more appropriate shotgun shells will give you excellent protection against criminal intruders. I’d suggest a reduced recoil #1 buck.

    Make sure your wife is comfortable shooting and quickly following up with your HD weapons. If the shotgun is too much, make sure she can operate the pistol. If a .40S&W is too hot, she might want to consider a 9mm in a heavier, HD pistol (loaded with appropriate ammo).

    The gun you have is always better than the one you don’t. Our goal is to have the right gun going in, which for home defense, is something maneuverable, capable of accurate shots and follow up shots, and neither underpenetrating or overpenetrating.

  • StanInTexas

    So Loa, 43 years is too long for an idea to go unresolved? An idea said 43 years ago cannot be made reality today by person in power that believe it?

    I will remember this the next time you are whining about a coming theocracy or about ANYTHING having to do with Christianity. After all, that stuff was said over 1,000 years ago, so it cannot have any bearing or meaning today, even if the people in power believe it and try to implement it.

    And we have already demolished all of your arguments on the supposed tea party rapist. Continue to struggle if you wish, but you are only trying to convince yourself!

  • anonymous

    This does sound ominous, but the 40 SHORT AND WEAK???

    This caliber has has ballistics similar to a blow dart.
    Sure it can kill you, but the person firing the weapon had better be a marksman. And my experience with law enforcement has been that most are lucky just not shooting themselves. Most LEOs are hoplaphobes who have no business handling firearms, let alone actually pulling the trigger.

    The 40 Short and Weak was designed for the FBI, because the 10mm hurt dayr widdle hands. Not too concerned about Fed’s with lame guns as long as we average Americans still have our .44′s and .45′s.

  • JimRed

    Iao said “What I have done is laugh at conservatives making that whining claim which, as usual, they pull out of their oh-so-sensitive little heads.”

    Listen up, people; Iao is using the Alinsky playbook to try to tick us off. Target, freeze, polarize, ridicule, all that. Misdirection to get us off the useful discussion, as well. Don’t fall for it, or as was said on another forum, DON’T FEED THE TROLLS!

  • lao

    jimmy, when people lie and say ridiculous things, it’s completely fair to mock them.

  • StanInTexas

    Loa, that very clearly explains why everyone on this board moks you and holds you in such low regard.

  • http://14 Cameraman

    Thanks but NO Thanks, I”ll take my 45ACP with flying ashtrays any time…Click- Boom!

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  • Sinister66

    FrankW says:

    Those Sig Mosquitos are great weapons. Dont like cheap ammo though.

  • TonyD95B

    RE: Robert Peahl at March 19, 2012 at 9:03 pm:

    “…..Yes, the M1911A1 is an incredible weapon, and my choice for home invasions.”

    Hopefully you mean as a defender, not as the agressor….HA!!! (just messin’ with ya, RP).

    All kidding aside, we have seen a lot of discussion on this thread about what the “best” defensive arm is.

    There are a lot of choices and a lot of different scenarios we can look at, and AC brings up a lot of good points in his posts.

    What is most important is to have the right mindset and NOT be a victim.

    As for your choice of a weapon, use whatever comes to hand if that’s what it takes. I knew a plainclothes policeman who subdued an attacker with an ASHTRAY once……the guy attacked him so suddenly, he grabbed the old, heavy glass ashtray off the bar they were standing next to and smacked the crap out of the guy. Probably a good thing, too – in the end justice prevailed and nobody got killed.

    With regard to a firearm, you have a wide range of choices when you are in your home – I prefer my Mossberg 590 or my M1911A1 pistol.

    Outside the home, the Mossberg is out of the question, and my beloved .45 is sometimes just too d#mn big and obvious to carry all the time. I sometimes carry an FEG .380 Wather PPK clone, and I had a compact .22 I could discreetly and comfortably carry during my late-night / early morning runs.

    My buddy Mark faced a similar predicament – his big Kimber .45 is just too much sometimes – hence his belt-clipped Kel-Tec .32

    My spouse has the advantage of having a purse always attached to her, and can readily hide a stainless S&W .357 revolver. Men (at least outside of SanFranFreakshow) don’t generally pack purses, so women have some flexibility here – as long as they keep control of the bag.

    The point I’m making is that the gun that matters is the one you actually HAVE when you need it. Sometimes it’s not a matter of bringing “enough” gun – but of having it at all.

  • AC

    My spouse has the advantage of having a purse always attached to her, and can readily hide a stainless S&W .357 revolver. Men (at least outside of SanFranFreakshow) don’t generally pack purses, so women have some flexibility here – as long as they keep control of the bag.

    What if the threat is a purse snatcher or a strike-from-behind rapist?

    Being a male not from San Francisco or Brussels, I’m not familiar with the mechanics of a purse, but I can’t imagine it makes for a tactically sound draw.

    I love carrying my violin case to the range, but I would never see it as an option in a defensive situation. I could not access my weapon fast enough to confidently respond to a threat to my life, if that threat was fixed on me, rather than menacing someone near me or menacing the area in general.

  • AC

    Just to clarify, in case it isn’t obvious, police advise women to carry pepper spray on their persons because rapists are known to separate women from their purses to prevent access to weapons or cell phones. The goblin population might not be too bright, but it has apparently evolved far enough to know that a purse could conceal an equalizer of some sort.

  • Robert Peahl

    TonyD95B @ 5:13
    LOL. Yes, I should have specified defender!
    You’re right, there is some excellent advice in the thread on different types of weaponry and ammo.
    I use a .22 for my CCW for the reasons you point out as disadvantages to the .45, and my girlfriend also uses a .22 because she just isn’t comfortable with the heavier calibers.
    For me it comes down to comfort level. I’ve used my .45 for over 30 years, so it’s like an extension of my hand.
    The only downside is the relatively small capacity. But then again, if I need to fire 8 shots and don’t have time to put in a “fresh” one, I’m probably in a situation which won’t end well for me anyway!

  • TonyD95B

    RE: AC at March 20, 2012 at 7:18 pm:

    Yep – note my statement about, “….women have some flexibility here – as long as they keep control of the bag.”

    If you have a bag (the brand name escapes me) with a center pocket allowing you to access said weapon quickly, it makes it easier. In addition, situational awareness is also an important part of personal security.

    I have at various times also suggested a “Baby Browning” in a garter holster…..didn’t go over too well.

    Speaking of Baby Brownings, I grew up with two friends whose widowed mother carried such a gun in her regular purse, and in fact used to carry it illegally between her home in PA and her job at DuPont in downtown Wilmington, DE every day.

    One summer evening she came home from work to an empty house, and a “goblin” (God, I love Col. Cooper!) from the nusiance tavern across the road busted in her front door a short time later and announced his intention to….”do things” with her….things she did not consent to or agree with.

    She got the dimunitive .25 out of her purse, said something to the effect of, “I think NOT, scumbag” and held the attacker at bay while dialing 911 with the other hand.

    I arrived a short time later. I remember the State Trooper telling me about how he had to push her hand toward the floor and pry it from her grip……

    Good news was, she had it when she needed it, and NOBODY got hurt, including the jacka## that bulldozed through her door. I have no doubt at all she would have shot the bastard had it come to that……and she told me so, too.

    Like I said, the gun that matters is the one you have when you need it. She had a shotgun and .45 upstairs…

    We DO NOT live in a perfect world. Do what you gotta do.

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