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Jul 20 2012

If Just One Law-Abiding Moviegoer Had Been Armed…

…how many lives could have been saved?

At least 12 people were killed and 50 were being treated at Denver area hospitals after a shooting at a midnight showing of Batman, the youngest a 3-month-old baby.

Twelve people were taken to the Medical Center of Aurora with gunshot wounds and ranged from minor to critical condition. Three were treated for chemical exposure, most likely from tear gas. They ranged in age from 16 to 31.

If this is used as a pretext to further erode our right of self-defense — as events like this usually are — our disintegrating society will become still more dangerous.

On a tip from Son of Taz.

106 Responses to “If Just One Law-Abiding Moviegoer Had Been Armed…”

  1. StanInTexas says:

    This incident can AND WILL be used by this administration as further evidence that we need to have your 2nd Amendment rights curtailed or eliminated.

    Already across the blog-o-sphere, they are calling the shooter a “Right-Wing, TeaParty Christian”. I’m sure the shooter will get the Jared Loughner treatment.

  2. Louisiana Steve says:

    Gun rights will surely come under attack after this cowardly act. Since no one in the movie theator was armed, how could you possibly call for further disarming of the law abiding public?? I, for one, would like to see more CCW’s out there. Having one myself and being armed everytime I walk out the door is a huge and unselfish responsiblity. It means I will step up and protect myself as well as loved ones. This also means I feel responsible for the safety of other innocents close by. If more folks had permits, it would go a long way in helping other permit holders. Sure the coward in Colorado had a vest, but if he was caught in a cross fire he would have thought twice about shooting anyone else.

  3. whotothewhat says:

    A false flag incident perhaps, FBI has already made the statement he is not been tied to terrorist group or intent or in non PC speak Islamofascism. Not that I trust what the FBI will tell us anyways. Guy could be a KOOK! with no motive other then to cause harm and death. But much like another attempt to take away or erode our 2nd amendment FAST AND FURIOUS and the new attempt with Obama admin signing off on the UN Arms Transfer Treaty. (ATT)

    This will be used weaken our 2nd amendment right that is for sure by the media and the left in Washington and by the UN.

  4. h. says:

    Why would you take a 3 month old baby to the movies?

  5. Jester says:

    Just watch: The Demo-rats & their willing media servants are gonna sell us the line that this guy is actually a SANE right-wing, racist, homophobic, Republican, tea-party organizer.

    Oh, if he had only had the foresight to shout “Ahallu Ackbar” just one time

  6. StanInTexas says:

    H, becasue you wanted to see the movie and could not find a babysitter?

    Or maybe because the parents believed that a sign in front of the movie theater that banned guns on the premesis meant that it was a safe place.

  7. h. says:

    Um. 3 months old. Stay home if you can’t find a sitter.

  8. StanInTexas says:

    H, spoken like a person with no children.

  9. justme says:

    Even the Drudge Report is listing:
    Suspect Identified: James Holmes, 24, white, only contact with police was traffic ticket in 2011…
    Suspect’s Mother: ‘You have the right person’…
    Mass Murder Scene Unfolds At Colorado Movie Theater…
    Shooter ‘masked, clad in black’…
    ‘Rifle, handgun, gas mask’…

    When was the last time a Politically Correct madman’s race was listed? Sigh….. Those evil White men at it again..
    Made his way up aisle…
    Shot anyone trying to leave…
    People seated ‘began coughing, having difficulty breathing’…
    Cellphone footage shows aftermath…
    VIDEO: Survivors Recount Horror…
    WARNER BROS ‘Deeply Saddened’…
    ‘Society seduced by sadism’…

  10. James says:

    To answer your question, here’s what COULD have happened. Funny how the mainstream media buried this incredible story last week. The whole thing is caught on video. This guy is a true hero.

    Surveillance – Elderly Man Shoots Robbers at Internet Cafe in Florida

  11. FrankW says:

    Actually I am fine with a baby going to the movie. At least in my area they have cry rooms at the back of the theater. Just because you have kids does not automatically force you into a monastic lifestyle with no outside entertainment.

  12. mr.x. says:

    Bane Capital? I guess the dems will be dropping that angle now.

  13. justme says:

    Guns and White Men MUST be OUTLAWED! Chuck Schumer and MSNBC

  14. AC says:

    Heard from someone that CC in CO is illegal in entertainment venues wuhich charge for admission.

    Im on my phone away from home so its hard for me to search and verify.

    Sounds like this theater may have been a gun free zone.

  15. AC says:

    Very rude to bring young chldren to movies not intended for that age group. Adults want to hear the movie not the kids. Thats one reason I quit going. Wont give my money to Hollywood moonbats either.

    The same applies to horny teens uing the place to grope.

  16. StanInTexas says:

    AC, the only thing ‘rude’ about bringing children to a movie or resturant or any other PUBLIC venue is when the parents allow the child to disturb other patrons. If the child is well behaved and is not a distraction, they are welcome.

  17. Adrian says:

    If this had happened in TX, AK, VA, FL etc; the shooter would have been shot or apprehended by a concealed handgun permit holder. He was obviously a chickensh!t punk with his ballistic “bulletproof” vest and would have been scared sh!tless if he saw a gun pointed at him.

    In this month’s NRA Rifleman magazine – a 14 year old boy confronted two armed men with his 12ga. shotgun. Both bad guys were pointing their illegal pistols at him, but when they saw that he was armed too! – they ran like the chickensh!t punks they are. Just showing your gun can stop the carnage. Colorado needs to recognize that responsible civilians with guns SAVE LIVES!

  18. StanInTexas says:

    Adrian, here in Texas, we have many places like movie theaters and resturants that prohibit weapons in their business. We call them free-fire zones. What they are saying with those signs is simple…

    “We, the owners of this establishment, do not guarentee your safety while you are here, AND we will not allow you to protect yourself. We will also do absolutely nothing if an armed person comes here and begins to shoot at you, becasue we have placed a sign on our door prohibiting guns and it is not out fault!”

    I generally avoid these businesses and prefer to give my money to places that will allow me a fighting chance.

  19. dan says:

    but..but..but… the sign SAID no guns allowed on the premises …

  20. James says:

    A quote from one of the would-be Florida armed robbers–

    Hours after his release from the hospital, Henderson, who talked about the pain he feels in his buttock and hip, said the plan was to “barge in, get the money and leave.” He said “he never expected anyone to be armed.”

    This is EXACTLY why we need more armed citizens.

  21. AC says:

    Stan, I used to feel that way but it seems like every loud kid has parents who think he is a quiet little angel. People bring the kids and then the noise starts up, to the apparent shock of the parents.

    All kids that age are potentially loud.

  22. TTommy says:

    I live in Texas, have a concealed handgun license, and I carry. In fact, I just went to a movie and I had my gun with me. If that nut had opened up in my theater, I would have fired back. I may or may not have been successful in stopping it, but I would have TRIED! What if someone had a gun in there? How many lives could have been saved?

  23. StanInTexas says:

    AC, let me tell you something, it is not the kids, it is ALWAYS THE PARENTS.

    I have on more than one occasion been in a movie or a resturant with children who you would never know they are there unless you saw them.

    And when the noise does start up, it is NEVER to the shock of the parents. They are always incompetent boobs that know their child is a terror and are just glad for the opportunity that the child is not disturbing them right now. The good parents are the ones who make their kids behave in public or take them out.

    It is not right that parents with children who do know how to behave in public are slighted because of the few incompetent jerks!

  24. blue says:

    when, oh when, will Obama do the right thing and ban Batman movies???

  25. Sinister66 says:

    Adrian says:

    “If this had happened in TX, AK, VA, FL etc; the shooter would have been shot or apprehended by a concealed handgun permit holder.”

    Easy to say, hard to prove.

    AC says:

    “Very rude to bring young chldren to movies not intended for that age group. Adults want to hear the movie not the kids.”

    Have to agree with you on this one.

  26. StanInTexas says:

    Tommy, I know a lot of people that do the same thing. They will ignore the signs that prohibit guns on the premesis and carry to protect themselves. I applaud people like that. Had there been a few people in that theater carrying, they may have stopped this tragedy before it even got started good.

    And they would have been vilified in the press, or ignored.

  27. Saxxon says:

    I was armed at the theatre last night, 25 miles away. When I came out, the police confronted me as I was pulling out of my parking spot and ran a background check. They asked why I was armed (have a CCW) to which I cited the numerous violent attacks across the country on people in public places, gang violence etc. The police said I’d understand when I got home, that there was a shooting at a theatre in Aurora.

    Turns out, I used to live by that theatre and go there regularly 8+ years ago. Had I been there, its a certainty he would have got less people at least till he dealt with me, or I may have got him – despite his armor & helmet which are cumbersome, he wouldn’t know which way and who was going to counterfire till I opened fire.

    Sad day indeed, I hope this fucker fries. No injection for him.

  28. StanInTexas says:

    Ah, the internet Tough-Guy is back to tell us how if HE had been in the theater, he would have taken on the gunman and subdued him with his bare hands!

    Piss off Sinister!

  29. Nangleator says:

    Yeah, if a darkened theater had been filled with people shooting their guns off in whatever direction they felt best… Yeah. Heroism saves the day.

  30. StanInTexas says:

    Nan/Lao, Right.

    Much better to sit in that dark theater and wait your turn to be shot while the police stand outside deciding if they have filled out all the correct forms before they can enter.

    An armed person in that theater could have stopped the killer in their tracks and lessened the death toll.

  31. AC says:

    Yes it is the the parents fault but to a bystander of the noise it doesnt really matter. After a while you just start to realize that if kids are present at a place intended for adults, which usually makes the kids restless by not holding their attention, eventually the noise is going to start up.

    Planes and nice restaurants are the worst for it. If the kid is making noise it ruins it for the adults but it also means the kids arent enjoying it either.

    Some of my much older acquaintances mentioned that it didnt used to be as much of a problem before the dems destroyed the nuclear family, discouraged discipline, and the “me” generation emerged and chose to do whatever it wanted.

    As a bystander I guess I follow Pavlov on this one. I have learned to associate bored kids with noise.

  32. coldwarrior57 says:

    All that’s needed for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing. That nothing is NOT exercising their 2nd ammendment RIGHTS.

  33. Jester says:

    Just watch: The Demo-rats & their willing media servants are gonna sell us the line that this guy is actually a SANE right-wing, racist, homophobic, Republican, tea-party organizer.

    And after two very quick hours, my prediction instantly becomes true.

  34. AC says:

    Practice your Mozambique drills.This shooter was wearing armor.

    Unfortunately this incident proves why we do need high powered stuff for HD. Remember how often the grabbers insist that a .22 6 shooter or a single shell of buck will do the job.

  35. StanInTexas says:

    AC, I actually agree with you 100%. But as a parent who made my children behave in public, I know first hand how parents react. And I have also seen first hand how parents with ill-behaving child are themselves very rude and ill-behaved when they are called on it. I actually saw a man in a movie theater grab an usher around the throat because the usher had told him to quiet his screaming 9-year-old son or take him out. I and two others had to pull him off before he hurt the young man. Security took them both out.

    My point is simple, children can behave in public and those that do should not be punished because of those that don’t.

  36. Adrian says:

    Hey “Sleepswithhisister66” – my statement was an example in context. If I covered all variables and scenarios the post would have been pages long. Sure I can’t prove it, but one example could be the older guy in Florida who shot those Internet Cafe bandits the other day. So much for your overly dismissive argument.

    Let’s just put it this way: when the bad guys start shooting, would you rather be legally armed or not?

    Stan, I grew up in TX (Palestine, Brownsville, Conroe) and you are absolutely right: the no gun zones are the safest places for the criminals to commit crimes. I recall one time a madman went into a bar (no guns allowed back then) and killed a bunch of people. He chose the place because he knew it was one of the only places in TX where nobody would be armed. Several of the bar’s patrons had left their legally carried guns in their cars. If they had them, I am certain (I cannot prove it Sleepswithhissister66) this guy would have been shot by a responsible gun owning citizen and several of those killed would be alive today.

  37. StanInTexas says:

    “Practice your Mozambique drills”

    Sweet, I’m glad I’m not the only person that knows that drill. VERY effective!

  38. StanInTexas says:

    Adrian, for proof of Sinisters idiocy, recall several years ago the two bandits that tried to rob a bar at gunpoint in Detroit. The robbery was foiled by a patron carrying a weapon. Did I mention that the bar was a cop bar, across the street from the precinct, 20 minutes after shift change?

    Bottom line, guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens CAN stop crime.

  39. Cameraman says:

    Obama said:Prayers not Politics today..Until he can find a way to pin this on the Tea Party!

  40. dan says:

    Gotta’ admit that a tap to the ass would have got his attention…but headshots are effective too. I suspect non-hardened armor (I heard BP-vest only)but volley
    ’till they quit twitching or you’re out…then reload.

  41. Adrian says:


    That Detroit example is hilarious! I wish I was a fly on the wall for that attempted robbery.

  42. Seamus says:

    Jester says:
    July 20, 2012 at 8:04 am

    They named a private individual completely unassociated with the shooting, and attempted to find a link to him. I hope they have good attorneys.

  43. TrickleUpPolitics says:

    Children in movie theaters: pisses me off. Parents sit there while babies cry or while their older children walk in and out of the theater looking at their cell phones (the light draws your eye from the screen and WHY CAN”T THEY SIT THROUGH A MOVIE?) When I saw Magic Mike this idiot woman brought her three daughters who were all about 12, and guess what, they walked in and out of the theater watching their cell phones. And I paid money for this experience? Pisses me off. This kind of incompetent parental behavior is so ubiquitous that I try to avoid any venue where there are children or teens, or even 20 somethings. They have no manners and no respect. When I go to the movies, I go to the first showing on a weekday and see it with the blue hairs. Besides, it’s cheaper.

  44. TrickleUpPolitics says:

    Nangleator says:
    July 20, 2012 at 7:58 am
    Yeah, if a darkened theater had been filled with people shooting their guns off in whatever direction they felt best… Yeah. Heroism saves the day.

    I assume that someone with a CC permit would be shooting in the direction of the shooter. Duh.

  45. AC says:

    The problem with headshots is accuracy. Many CC pistols cant make them and most shooters arent sufficiently skilled to try.

    It depends on your weapon. If an active shooter takes two COM hits from my G20 and does not appear to be stopped then I will go for the head if and only if the shock of being hit slows him down enough to make the shot.

    If all I have is my LCP then I would probably continue shooting COM because of the balliistic limitations of the 380.

    This is why drills are useful. In the heat of an active shooter situation we wont have time to sit and ponder the next shot. We must be ready to react based upon cues.

  46. TrickleUpPolitics says:

    dan says:
    July 20, 2012 at 7:39 am
    but..but..but… the sign SAID no guns allowed on the premises …

    Agree. Libturds think making a rule prevents this kind of behavior and are shocked, shocked, to see that it didn’t work. Better to take your gun, defend yourself and have the theater ban you for life instead of pushing up daisies.

  47. TrickleUpPolitics says:

    Question: the movie theater needs to be sued. Why do emergency exit doors open from the outside?

  48. TrickleUpPolitics says:

    Another clear choice:

    Obama says the government will do everything it can

    Romney is praying for the victims

  49. AC says:

    I read one report which indicated that a patron answered his cell phone then went to open the emergency exit door. Possible conspirator.

  50. StanInTexas says:

    TUP @8:48

    So, in other words, both men are praying to their god?

  51. 70Stage1 says:

    I’m here in Colorado, I’ve already heard a liberal call in on the radio blaiming Rush, Glen, talk radio and the guns. He blamed everybody and everything but the guy who obtained, armed the guns and pulled the trigger.

    From what I understand he was a student from San Diego getting his Phd here.

    We’ll see where it goes from here, but rest assured the 2nd Ammendment will be attacked blamed by this administration for this act.

  52. StanInTexas says:

    Brian Rood of ABC News has reported…
    ”There’s a Jim Holmes of Aurora, Colorado, page on the Colorado Tea party site as well, talking about him joining the Tea Party last year,” Ross mused on the air. ”Now, we don’t know if this is the same Jim Holmes. But it’s Jim Holmes of Aurora, Colorado.”

    I wonder how many people named Jim/James Holmes live in that area?

    These people are SHAMELESS!~

  53. StanInTexas says:

    Sorry, should be Brian Ross!

  54. AC says:

    Colorado has a death penalty but the libtards dont use it.

    Dont expect justice for the victims.

  55. 70Stage1 says:

    TUP: The plaintiff attorneys are foaming at the mouth right now on who they can “represent” and sue. And the list will be long and creative.

    Bottom line was this guy was a wack job, well rehearsed and well prepared. Only armed citizens and brave men could have shortened this carnage.

    We don’t need to get on the “sue everyone” bandwagon.
    Plaintiff attorneys benefit the most out of these tragedies.

  56. MissAnthropy says:

    It’s not just “who takes a 3 month old to a movie”, it’s “who takes a 3 month old to a movie at midnight”?

  57. eat me says:

    this just in, shooter is a registered democrat that voted for Obama

  58. StanInTexas says:

    Eat Me, Stop with the politicizing. There are people still bleeding from this tragedy. Calling this monster a registered Democrat is no different than the people that are blaming Rush Limbaugh and the Tea Party for this.

  59. Sinister66 says:

    StanInTexas says:
    “Ah, the internet Tough-Guy is back to tell us how if HE had been in the theater, he would have taken on the gunman and subdued him with his bare hands!

    Piss off Sinister!”

    Actually I probably would have thrown my kids on the floor and laid over the top of them.

    You still trying on womens clothes??

  60. StanInTexas says:

    More lies from you, Lao. Why don’t you just run away like you always do? No one here cares what you have to say!

  61. AC says:

    I have to disagree Stan. The left started the politics with the unfounded Tea Party allegation then went on to blame Rush.

    If hes a registered Dem then that disproves leftist smears.

  62. StanInTexas says:

    AC, I think eat me is a troll that just said that so Liberals could claim “See, you do it too!”

    If he had proof, he would have posted a link!

  63. James says:

    Actually broke the story that he COULD be a democrat. If you read the details, it’s looking very likely.

  64. dan says:

    Where’s Zimmerman when you need him….

  65. QuietMan says:

    Six days and a wake up until the UN Small Arms treaty. Hmmmm…..

  66. StanInTexas says:

    James, the gunman COULD also be a Muslim terrorist, an Amish furniture maker, or a time traveler from the planet Betelguse!

    I think that ALL of this political speculation is counterproductive right now. The suspect is scheduled for arraignment in court on Monday. Over the weekend, we will find out which of the hundreds of Jim/James Holmes this guy really is.

    And there will be enough speculation of his political motives then.

    Our thoughts and prayers should be with the victims and their families, and not with the hope that the gunman is of a particular political bent!

  67. Sinister66 says:

    Adrian says:

    So your going to compare a sparcly filled internet cafe to a packed movie theater. Not to mention it was dark and the shooter popped tear gas grenades and was wearing Riot gear (from the last radio report I heard). Not really the same thing.

    Lets also remember when the shooting started people bolted for the door. So are you going to shoot around panicked people. You will more then likely hit a patron and end up putting yourself in jail.

    All of this ” If only there was an armed patron” talk is a bunch of garbage. Talk is cheap, get back to me when your actually in a position like this.

  68. StanInTexas says:

    And I am VERY concerned for the safety of the LEOs that are currently trying to disarm the booby-traps in the alleged gunman’s apartment!

  69. Jackel says:


    Also, you want a shoot out in a packed movie theater with TEAR GAS filling the room? THAT wouldn’t have resulted in more deaths, I’m sure.

  70. StanInTexas says:

    Sinister, Adrian gave you a perfect example of what happens when thugs are confronted by an armed citizen. You can wave your hand and try to dismiss the example, but it is 100% accurate.

    Oh, and I almost forgot… PISS OFF!

  71. StanInTexas says:

    Jackel, there WAS a shootout in a packed movie theater filled with gas. But is was one-sided, as only the murderer had a gun. I know that GFW Liberals like you think that people with guns just jump up and start shooting anything and everything, but that is only your stupidity.

    There is no guarentee that a person with a gun could have stopped it, any more that there is a guarentee that a person that knows CPR could save a heart-attack victim. But there is 100% certainity that the gunman had NO CHANCE of being stopped because there was no opposing weapon there!

  72. StanInTexas says:

    Thanks, blue.

  73. blue says:

    Holy Copycat Batman! Campaign dubs Obama-Biden ‘Dynamic Duo’

    I want to see the new spin on this…….remember the shooter, a registered democrat, was dressed as Batman

  74. J says:


    The differences in environment are semi valid, but if a few people started shooting at him, he would have been trying to shoot at them instead of going up and down the isle leisurely shooting people. Either way, he’d be dead soon, or hiding behind something to avoid getting shot. Once again he would not walk around and just shoot people like fish in the barrel. If you think otherwise you watched too many movies…

    Would there have still been victims? Of course. But not as many dead and wounded.

  75. Sam Adams says:

    Sinister66 says:
    July 20, 2012 at 7:51 am Adrian says:

    “If this had happened in TX, AK, VA, FL etc; the shooter would have been shot or apprehended by a concealed handgun permit holder.”

    Easy to say, hard to prove.


    Trolley Square, Salt Lake City. A shooter was stopped by a citizen carrying his weapon (contrary to Trolley Square policy), and engaging the shooter until police arrived.

    BTW, I agree with the idea that if a person/company restricts your right to carry a weapon, and it could be reasonably argued that having a weapon may have lessened or prevented injuries to you or others, the property owner can and should be sued.

    If they disarm you, they need to take positive steps to protect you.

  76. Harfor says:

    Crazy Conspiracy Theory Alert:

    The timing (political) of this shooting.

    Discuss amongst yourselves.

  77. Brian_Boru says:

    Is this sick freak an Occupy San Diego member???

  78. KHarn says:

    Forget about “if a law-abidinbg citizine had been armed”, how about concentrating on the fact that a son of a bitch decided to become a MASS MURDERER?

    The problem, STUPID LIBERALS, is VIOLENT people with weapons, not PEACEFUL people with weapons.

  79. Mr Evilwrench says:

    Fortunately, in my state those “no firearms” signs do not have force of law, so I carry always except to school or court or whatnot. If they find you armed, they can ask you to leave; if you don’t you can be charged with trespassing. I would have had my .45 and 41 rounds, and no, I’m not just going to whip it out and start blasting.

  80. Adrian says:

    Sleepswithhissister66 says:

    “Lets also remember when the shooting started people bolted for the door. So are you going to shoot around panicked people. You will more then likely hit a patron and end up putting yourself in jail.”

    You are showing your inability to think critically (no surprise there): In a crowded space you crouch low, aim high. He’s standing alone; if you miss his head, the bullet goes harmlessly above the crowd. Anyone that shoots legally knows how to acquire their target and avoid downrange accidents.

    You are clearly an asshat – but I would still protect you by confronting an assailant if it came to that. Why don’t you move to Mexico where guns are illegal and it is nice and safe?

  81. Jodie says:

    AC says:
    July 20, 2012 at 8:50 am

    “I read one report which indicated that a patron answered his cell phone then went to open the emergency exit door. Possible conspirator.”

    That is very interesting, because we heard someone on the radio this morning saying that the killer burst into the theater just at the moment that there was a trailer of a Sean Penn movie showing four heavily armed guys shooting at the audience. If this is true, and there was an accomplice, it seems as if it may have been timed to coincide with that scene.

  82. Jackel says:

    How would they know what trailers would play and when?

  83. Jackel says:

    That does not answer my question. How would the shooter and his supposed accomplice know when it would play for him to come in and start shooting? Or that it would play in that theater at all?

  84. dan says:

    but..but…but…they’re supposed to turn off their cell phones

    Good points,all especially about difficulty of head shots in the dark while the people are screamin’ and scattering and teargas even if you had your swim-goggles and bandanna/apple-cider kit in your pocket.

  85. son of a preacher man says:

    Yeah it is not like they schedule what trailers play before what movies.

  86. TrickleUpPolitics says:

    No conspirator. Read that perp bought a ticket, went into theater and propped door open, than came in armed and started shooting. Sounds like what probably happened.

  87. Jackel says:

    Furthermore, back on the topic at hand, it was a dark room filled with panicking people and tear gas. It is lucky not a single person was armed, because there would have been tons of friendly fire.

  88. KIHarn says:

    “Jackel says:July 20, 2012 at 3:31 pm”

    I don’t know how things are on YOUR planet, but here on Earth, MANIACS fire randomly, while SANE people fire when they have a clear target.

    I’ve heard that argument many times in regueard to murders. The anti- selfdefence crowd says “a honest person with a gun would have cause more innocent deaths”. Why? Because anti-selfdefence morons only know about macho “shoot-em-up” movies that show idiots spraying slugs all over the place.

  89. M.Wilson says:

    Some people are surprisingly tolerant of tear gas, I knew a guy who didn’t get more than a runny nose from it.

    That said, gas takes time to take effect, is heavier than air, and disperses fairly slowly. There’s a fairly wide window where a skilled CCW holder would have been able to return fire or initiate a standoff and cut the attack short, especially if they were in the back row or near the door where light would be better and the crowd would be thinner (as I doubt anyone is going to run *toward* the shooter).

    Would you rather people have the chance to defend themselves, even if there is a risk of friendly fire, or would you rather disarm everyone who obeys the law and at least comfort yourself with the thought that the shooter has to run out of ammo eventually?

  90. Jackel says:

    You know what would have saved lives? A second person firing a gun into a croud in a blind panic.

  91. M.Wilson says:

    That depends on whether you assume the best or worst case scenario. As I described above, a person who was competent, armed, and in the right place at the right time could have prevented the tragedy entirely or cut it down to a mere fraction of its scope. Despite what you may think, the A-Team is not the epitome of marksmanship.

    An incompetent boob in the wrong place could indeed have caused damage, but that’s a risk you take when giving people choice. You know, freedom, liberty, that kind of stuff.

    As I said, would you rather the only limit on a killing spree be a perpetrator’s ammo supply? Would you take a risky rescue over certain death?

  92. Fiberal says:

    For every incident of someone opening fire on unarmed groups of people, conservatives need to use these incidents to point out as strongly as possible, the need for an armed citizenry.

    Instead of letting shit-for-brains liberals appropriate the discussion to direct gun control, conservatives need to vociferously argue for the arming of society.

    Our country has guns with a society permeated by psychotics.

    Conservatives should therefore point out that psychotics do not target shooting ranges, police departments or gun stores for a very obvious reason.

    Conversely, no liberal would put a sticker on his house saying, “we have no guns here” since they depend on the next guy, or the guy next door, getting killed before themselves.

  93. Jimbo says:

    “A second person firing a gun into a croud in a blind panic”

    Spoken like a true idiot. Did you slobber on yourself as you were typing that?

    My gawd there’s a CRAP LOAD of ignorant people in this world.

  94. TrickleUpPolitics says:

    Lawmaker: ‘Was there nobody that was carrying that could’ve stopped this guy?’

    This article is about incidents with Cinemark theaters around the country re CCW. Isn’t China buying Cinemark?

  95. h. says:

    How many of you have actually fired your weapon in a deadly situation, in public, in a smoke filled room, with people panicking, and three month olds crying?

  96. h. says:

    And yes Stan, I do have children. Two awesome daughters, who I wouldn’t have taken to an adult movie,on opening night, out of consideration for my fellow moviegoers.

  97. M.Wilson says:

    Crises do not play out under uniform conditions. The prime opportunity to cut a crisis short is right at the beginning, where chaos is at a minimum and little to no damage has been done. In addition, different locations suffer from varying conditions and degrees of chaos. In the case of a shooter, unless he actively takes hostages his immediate location tends to develop the thinnest crowds as people run away from him.

    In this example, someone close enough to the door that the perpetrator used would not take long to determine the hostile intent of an asshole packing heat, wearing a ballistic vest, and tossing grenades. Gas grenades take a few seconds to go off, and then take several seconds to disperse. Since the gas is heavier than air, people in the higher seats will have more time and ultimately receive a lower dose. Since I haven’t read anything about the perp wearing a gas mask, I’m going to assume he entered a top row door in order to avoid the effects of his own gas, give himself a good view for shooting, and allow him to toss his grenades further. Therefore, a lawfully armed citizen near his point of entry would similarly benefit from improved visibility, especially since top row doors open to well-lit hallways. As you can see, assuming a uniform distribution of conditions, especially in a heavily sloped theater, is absolutely ridiculous.

    For someone in the right place, the shot wouldn’t have been any harder than a target on a firing range. And if the perp entered through the bottom door, I’m surprised he got so many people before choking on his own gas.

    As for some asshole on the opposite side of the theater, in pitch black darkness, choking on gas, and getting trampled by a fleeing crowd, hopefully he would either be too busy with his own problems or smart enough to not attempt a shot under those particular conditions, and perhaps move to more favorable ground if he really wants to nail the guy.

  98. M.Wilson says:

    Edit: It seems the report I had was outdated. Newer reports do include a gas mask, as well as the perpetrator having been captured. Also, the three month old survived and has been discharged from the hospital.

    However, witnesses stated that he did not begin firing until the gas dispersed. This means that someone in close proximity would have had a wide window to react and take him down before he fired a single shot. All it would take is a CCW and enough initiative to realize that the guy carrying three guns and throwing grenades is not the usher.

    The report, of course, is pushing gun control heavily. Including a rant about how he supposedly obtained the weapons “legally”, though given his mental state he obviously should not have been eligible under current law. Especially annoying and ignorant though:
    “[I]ncluding an AR-15 assault rifle, which can hold upwards of 100 rounds…”

    A typical AR-15 magazine holds between 10 and 30 rounds. I believe special emphasis should be placed on “the magazine holds the rounds”. This is blatant anti-gun scaremongering.

    In addition, apparently the spree only ended because he got bored and started shooting at his car, which he was doing when the police found him. So, would you rather have the chance to defend yourself, or just pray that the shooter gets bored before he gets to you?

  99. Jackel says:

    Tear gas. Shooter wearing body armor. Dark room. Countless number of panicking civilians running around.

    You would not have taken him down. You think you are all John Rambo. You’re not. You would have been blinded by the tear gas, and assuming you were not shot, may have been able to fire off a few shots that would have killed innocent people.

  100. M.Wilson says:

    You obviously did not read where I placed the window of opportunity. Let me break it down in bullet points for you.

    *Jackass carrying 3-4 guns, wearing civilian grade ballistic equipment (by no means “bullet proof”) and a gas mask walks into the theater.

    *Alert, trained CCW holder spots jackass and notes that he is not in appropriate movie-going attire.

    *Jackass throws grenade (start five second fuse) and readies weapons.

    *CCW holder recognizes hostile intent and draws. Grenade has not yet gone off, and as long as he is lucky enough to be outside the mask’s limited peripheral vision he will not be retaliated against at this stage.

    *Jackass waits for smoke to disperse, which will take another 10-15 seconds after the fuse reaches its end (it’s not explosive, it works like a smoke bomb). Additionally, I happen to know from experience that depending on your tolerance you have as many as two to five breaths before the gas becomes more than a mild nuisance.

    *At this point there is no smoke, no panic, and no gunfire. Jackass is silhouetted against a screen and has no civilians behind him. CCW holder opens fire.

    At this point, several things can happen:

    1: Best case scenario: lucky shot hits the head, penetrates the gas mask, incapacitates target immediately.

    2: Second best: shot lands center of mass, and is of sufficiently high energy to defeat the target’s ballistic vest. Target is now wounded and unlikely to return effective fire, and that gas will burn like hell when it reaches the wound.

    3: Initial shot fails to defeat body armor, but force of impact disorients and/or panics the target, allowing CCW holder to maintain fire until threat is neutralized.

    4: Second-worst case scenario: Initial shot misses, target retaliates, CCW holder down, massacre proceeds as if nothing happened.

    5: Worst case scenario, and the one you are fixated on: Shot misses and somehow hits another patron. Shooter retaliates, CCW holder down, massacre proceeds as if nothing happened.

    By comparison, when nobody is armed there is only one possible outcome:

    1: worst case scenario. Jackass empties magazines into the audience and kills indiscriminately until he runs out of ammo or gets bored.

    So basically, banning the guns nets zero benefit because it defaults to the worst case scenario. If you have guns, at least you have a chance. If they are in the right place at the right time, any citizen with even the most rudimentary understanding of firearms would have a decent chance at taking the perpetrator down.

    I’d rather go down fighting, how about you?

  101. Jackel says:

    No, you don’t. You stupid fuck, you would just kill more civilians.

    Just admit you want guns to compensate for your microscopic penis.

  102. M.Wilson says:

    My, how wonderfully civil and polite of you. I see the Left lives up to its own standards as usual.

    It is important to note that someone firing at a shooter draws fire to themselves in the event that they fail to incapacitate the target, forcing the perpetrator to expend rounds on them that would have been used on helpless bystanders. Arguably, even in a worst case scenario an intervention would save more lives than it costs merely by reducing the perpetrator’s ammo efficiency. While the theater scenario does limit viable intervention to the row or two closest to the shooter, the fact of the matter is that a CCW holder in close quarters is more likely to hit than miss.

    In order to qualify for a CCW in Texas, you must achieve an accuracy rating of 70% or greater against human sized targets at a range of up to 15 yards, using a handgun of .32 caliber or greater. I would hope that other states hold similar standards. 15 yards would be shooting across over half the theater, which of course isn’t going to happen here due to lack of a clear target (see: rules of weapon safety).

    In this scenario, a viable intervention would be achieved at a range of four yards or less. Anybody who has passed the CCW qualification course can easily make that shot. You don’t have to be a super elite sniper to plug someone just out of arm’s reach.

    I would also like to note that at that range, he will find his body armor considerably less effective. A .308 or high power .45 would probably defeat most legal civilian grades as long as it’s not hollow point. Even a 9mm if there’s enough powder behind it. This is done on purpose of course, the government generally doesn’t want civilians running around in body armor that can stop whatever the police are packing. This means that our hypothetical hero can go for a very easy body shot if he’s packing enough heat.

    Collateral damage is the absolute worst case scenario, and arguably even then there is a net gain in lives saved. But if you like, you can throw yourself upon the whim and ammo supply of the psychopath rather than the skill and initiative of your fellow citizens.

  103. Poncey Leftist Liberal says:

    “This means that our hypothetical hero can go for a very easy body shot if he’s packing enough heat.”

    How much heat should the hypothetical hero be packing? At least three small caliber firearms ought to be enough shouldn’t it? Two would do at a push, at least then you can toss one to your wife/sister/mother and reach mutual orgasm. Annoyingly most movie theaters have a strict one-weapon-per-customer policy.

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